New York Move Public Meeting, May 2, 2010 -- 1st Meeting (1/2)


Uploaded by usnationalarchives on 13.07.2010

Transcript:
bjbjT~T~ New York Move Public Meeting, May 2, 2010 1st Meeting Good morning. My name
is Diane Leblanc and I am the Regional Administrator of the National Archives - Northeast Region.
I have the pleasure of welcoming each of you this morning. We are all so grateful that
you have taken time out of your busy day to be with us for this very important public
meeting, the first of two that will take place today. And this day is really about hearing
from you, so we re not going to spend a whole lot of time on introductions, but I want to
briefly this is the boss, Tom Mills, Assistant Archivist of the United States. He works directly
for the Archivist of the United States, David Ferriero; the Assistant Regional Administrator,
David Powers; the Director of Archival Operations, Nancy Shader and our Public Programs Specialist
Dorothy Dougherty. Now if the rest of the staff that are here could stand I would like
to recognize you. Out at the front desk, a woman who needs no introduction to most of
you, Joanie Young. And also with her is Elizabeth Pope. We have Greg Plunges, Carol Savo, Chris
Zarr, Jennifer Nelson, Sara Pasquerello, and who am I missing? Who is that? Patrick Connelly! And also with us and
we are very grateful for being here, the Regional Administrator for the Mid-Atlantic Region,
V. Chapman Smith. Again, thank you very much for coming. Just a little bit more about Tom
Mills who I am going to turn this program over to. He has been with the National Archives
s see I should know this. For how many years? Tom Mills: Ten. Diane LeBlanc: Ten Years.
There you go. Nine of it he has been in his current position. He spent one year as the
Regional Administrator in the Mid Atlantic Region. Prior to that he was twenty-one years
at the New York State Archives. And he is also a native New Yorker from Long Island.
Tom Mills: Thank you, Diane. Good Morning, everybody! For those of you standing in the
back if you don t want to stand any longer there are plenty of seat up front because,
of course, no one wants to sit up front. But you are more than welcome to come up here
or there are a few over to the side there if you are so inclined. First of all I would
like to thank everyone for coming this morning. We are as you know in the relatively early
stages of planning for a move of the National Archives at New York from our Varick Street
location to the custom house where we are today. And we want to make sure as we now
begin the detailed planning for how this new space is going to operate that we have feedback
from the people who are our primary customers and other stakeholders that would be you.
We are putting information on our internet site; we are holding meetings with our volunteers;
we re talking individually as there are requests for those of you who would like more information
about what our plans are. And this public meeting and another one that we will hold
tonight at 5:30 in case there are people who are working today and couldn t make it to
this meeting have an opportunity to also come and express their questions about what we
are doing. We believe Hey Mark. How are you? We believe this is a great opportunity for
the National Archives to move to the Custom House. And you will hear more about that from
our staff so I am not going to go into those kind of details. Let me say just a couple
of words, a little more than Diane said, about myself. I did grow up in Long Island. I worked
in Brooklyn in New York City. Upstate in Albany. I know quite a few of you from having worked
in New York. I especially remember fondly working with Roger Joslyn as we, I am trying
to think of the appropriate, as we consulted with the New York State Department of Health on
increasing access to vital records in New York State. That s probably something that
is still going on, Roger. And V. probably knows something about that having worked as
the head of the New York State Archives. So I know a little bit about the resources that
are used in New York State but as they say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing
so I need to be careful and I am going to be relying on the experts that are sitting
here and the other staff who are in the audience. And make sure that to the extent we can that
we answer your questions today. If we are unable to give a sufficient and full response
or explanation for anything you are looking for, we will make sure that we capture the
information and ultimately get back to you as a group or individuals, and of course by
posting more information on our web site. The way, one of the ways that we are capturing
the information is through the work of Marie in the back of the room, who is videotaping
the proceedings. So given that, in order to capture all of the information at the meeting
we need to make sure that we use microphones, which is why I have this handheld and there
are microphones up here. So later on when we are finished with kind of the introductory
remarks Diane will have the microphone. So when you have questions please wait until
the microphone gets to you before you ask the question. Now I have one request of you
all before we start. If you don t mind, I would like, we would like, to know who you
are. So, to do that, we are going to practice passing around the microphone. Now, notice,
by the way, am I doing this right? You hold it [off camera instructions] You could even
hold it closer? [unclear comments] But if you hold it maybe six inches away it works
good? [unclear comments] Yea, but what should you do? [unclear comments] Alright, just speak
directly into it. Now we have all had our training session. Wow, you are running away
already? I was just. Well, I guess that you know Jordan we are going to start with you.
So if you would mind just briefly tell us who you are and what your primary relationship
to the National Archives at New York is. If you wouldn t mind in a couple of brief sentences.
Hi, I m Jordan Auslander. I m a professional genealogist. My relationship with the archives
- adversarial. No. [laughs] Just with certain staff members. Just became a big fan after
the move from Bayonne and find it indispensable, a regular part of my weekly routine. Arthur
Sniffin, Hunnington Historical Society and volunteer. I ve been coming here since Bayonne.
My name is Nadine Andrews. I always like to know that public access to records are available.
I have a long history of New York family members and you need the resources, you need to have
that available to us. Right now I m in Jersey, but grew up in New York. Good morning, my
name is Anita King. I m a volunteer at the National Museum of the American Indian downstairs
on the second floor for fifteen years; and just wanted to see what you guys were doing.
Long time New Yorker. m Barbara Proctor. I m also a volunteer. We are at the information
desk down on the second floor and we wanted to see what was going on, because I know we
are going to get a lot of questions about where you are and who you are. m Maryanne
DiNapoli and I m a professional genealogist and I ve been using the special resources
of the National Archives also since it s been in Bayonne. Laura Murphy DeGrazia. I m a professional
genealogist, currently the president of the Board of Certification of Genealogists. I
don t get to the archives as much as I d like to anymore because of my commitment to the
BCG, but I m here because I m concerned about the availability of records to researchers.
I think that s the, one of the most important missions of the National Archives. m Alene
Smith, I m president of the Afro-American Historical and Genealogical Society and I
use this facility for my research in New York. My name is Bill Carreker, I m also a member
of the African American Historical and Genealogical Society and I m a consumer m Richard Burbridge
and I m also a member of the same organization and I ve found many of my worst discoveries
on Varick Street. My name is Doris Burbridge and I do a lot of research at the National
Archives. I m also a member of the genealogical society, and especially I do a lot of Caribbean
research which is not available at other locations. Gail Adler, I m a former New York City teacher,
native New Yorker. I am not a professional genealogist; I just love the maze of untangling
the web. I ve used the resources at the National Archives and I m very concerned about what
you bring down here and what you don t bring down here. It s been - not everything is on
the computer and Ancestry has made quite a few mistakes. m Charles Thompson and I was
in book publishing for many years, but then have been doing outside research and I m so
glad that the move is only across town, not to Pittsfield or some other place and thank
you for the invitation. m Wayne Finnegan and I love New York City, it s in my fingernails
and I believe everything we can keep in New York City is good for New York City and that
s why I m here. Hi, I m Inette Fernandez and I m a research assistant at Laurie Thompson
Consultants. m Cathy Michelson, director for development of the New York Genealogical and
Biographical Society and NARA is a crucial resource for our members and I want to be
able to inform them of how they can continue to use it. McKelden Smith, I m the president
of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society. We have a very close relationship
with NARA on many levels and we have thousands of members who have I m sure all at one time
or another been customers. m Elliot Colchamiro, recently I became a professional volunteer,
I like to call myself an archivist now; and of course this is the end of my second year
at the Varick Street facility. I ve enjoyed it very much and have been assigned some fascinating
projects and I m delighted you ll be moving to this location, because it s closer to the
Staten Island ferry and that s good for me. m Carol Savo, I m a staff member at the National
Archives and I ve been working with the National Archives since 1987. Hi, I m Greg Plunges;
I m an archivist on the staff of the National Archives in New York City. I ve been with
the archives as long as Carol has. m Livingston Young; I m the administrative manager for
the U.S. Bankruptcy Court. We re one of the first tenants in the building, so we have
a vested interest in the move. We have a long standing relationship with the Archives so
that is a positive, however; we serve the judges and the public so security becomes
a primary issue these days, so that s also one of our focuses. My name is Scott Merritt
I m the director of operations for National Museum of the American Indian George Gustav
Heye Center here in the building. We were not the first tenant, but soon thereafter,
but we are the largest tenant square footage wise, but we re very excited about the National
Archives moving into this building. We feel it will be mutually beneficial to both of
our organizations and we ve worked with them a bit over the last couple of years at least
trying to encourage them and make clear the positive aspects of being, what in my mind
has been a great rebirth of downtown New York, and just the accessibility of this building
and what it s become I think is a very positive thing, so that s why I m here. m Elizabeth
Pope I m an archivist at the National Archives in New York and I ve been here since December.
m Ted Doginick and I work for the Public Building Service an agency of the General Service Administration
and I ll be the project manager on the design and construction of the National Archives
moving into Bowling Green. m Sara Pasquellero; I m an archives technician with the National
Archives and I ve been here about six months. Hi, I m Christopher Zarr; I m the education
specialist for the National Archives at New York City and I ve been here about two years.
Hi, I m Charlie Niessa and I m a volunteer at Varick Street at the Archives. Hi, I m
Arlene Jennings, Brooklyn. I m here more from general than personal interest. I am a secretary
of the National Genealogical Society and I m very concerned about access to records and
services to our members. Hello, my name is Sara Fitzpatrick. I m the archivist at the
Brooklyn Navy Yard Archive. We ve been working with the National Archives on a scanning project
of all the historical photos of the Brooklyn Navy Yard and hope to be able to continue
to access those as well as other records that we think might be available. Hi my name is
Meredith Wisner; I m also at the Brooklyn Navy Yard Archive and I ve been conducting
much of that research. m Don Eckerle; I m a Long Islander so I m a New Yorker working
on special projects at the National Archives to index all the naturalization records and
we ve been doing that for a number of about thirteen years or something like that and
we re up to almost 2 million records and they are all available for free on our website.
m Jennifer Nelson; I m the director of archival programs in College Park Headquarters National
Archive. I work for Tom. m Ruth Carr; I m the head public service librarian at the New
York Public Library at 42nd Street and our relationship to the Archives is complementary
with an m Roger Joslyn; I m a certified and forensic genealogist and my time with NARA
goes back to the mid-70s when I used to play hooky from work in Boston and take my lunch
and go out and spend a day in Jim Owen s cramped office with an old recordak and a limited
number of microfilms, but that was wonderful and I d also like to say that Arty Sniffin
and I have the unique distinction to be designated by former archivist John Carlin as the worst
troublemakers in the genealogical field. m Leslie Corn; I m also a certified and forensic
genealogist and I cut my teeth here at the National Archives as a volunteer and I m very
grateful for that exposure to the records and what I learned here and because of that
I d really hate to see any records leave here and we re all facing reality, obviously. As
part of a small, but rabid constant customer group we need records for the court and that
is my concern that we will have enough of those records still accessible here and another
concern of mine is about the dummying down the internet can provide and how can the National
Archives maintain its stature and its education and its offerings in the face of surname typists.
My name is Lucy Atkinson and I guess I m an amateur here because I ve only been doing
genealogy for a few months working on my families and trying to prove to them that what they
are telling us may not be true and so I hope to use the National Archives a lot in the
future. Hi, I m Mary Jane Cameron; I m from the [?], we do genealogy programs for the
last eight years and we ve had some of the speakers here at our programs and I m delighted
about the location I think it s wonderful I think it will make it much more accessible
to a lot more people again I understand the problem with the records, but I m hoping that
someone will have a great way of solving that problem. m Debra Braverman; I m a professional
genealogist specializing in forensic work I m also a director of the Association of
Professional Genealogists. I was actually at Bayonne, so it s been a long time that
I ve had a relationship with National Archives. I m very concerned that we continue to have
access to records that we need to have to provide to clients and to the courts I think
we tend to forget that not everything is on the internet and even things that are on the
internet aren t always complete and correct so I would like to see I have a whole list
of records in my head that I would like to see remain here. Hi, I m Estelle Guzik; I
ve had a long-term relationship with National Archives and with the New York State Archives.
I remember when Tom was up there and very helpful to us. I also remember when we had
a little controversy between us on the Brooklyn naturalization records, but I am also concerned
about the number of records that remain here. I think it is really important to keep more
of them here. This is one of the, in my opinion, one of the most important archives in the
city and possibly in the nation, because this is the place that everybody comes to there
are other wonderful places like the New York Public Library and the Municipal Archives
and the Center for Jewish History, but the National Archives is the repository for all
the federal records and they are vast and as I m looking at the things that are not
staying here I m really concerned, some of them I didn t even know were here, some of
them were items that were donated by the Jewish Genealogical Society of which I was a former
president and I would like to see those stay or at least have the JGS be given the option
of determining where they reside hopefully to stay in New York, because that was the
purpose of those donations and then there are other things that I m seeing on your list
that I know are not online and probably because they re not in the genealogical resource book
most people don t even know that they are here and I would love to see you publish this
list online so that people can give you better feedback you ll get it from me for sure. Hi,
I m Avrum Geller; I m a professional genealogist and I have the pleasure of living two short
blocks from 201 Varick, but it only took me ten minutes to get down here by subway. My
biggest concern is the access to indexes, which NARA currently has at Varick Street,
indexes which are in some case are handwritten, in many cases they are microfilmed card indexes
that have been digitized, but I often find things on them that have been incorrectly
transcribed when they were digitized and put onto Ancestry and so forth so I think the
indexes are very important treasures to maintain since they go a generation back from the computerized
records. Hi, good morning. My name is Maira Liriano, the manager of the Milstein Division
of the United States History, Local History and Genealogy at the New York Public Library
and as my colleague Ruth Carr has said our relationship is definitely complementary and
we refer many of our patrons to NARA on a regular basis. Hi Diane LeBlanc had introduced
me, I m V. Chapman Smith. Some of you may remember me when I was New York State Archivist
- your faces look very familiar. I had the privilege of serving New York for over six
years and also the honor of being designated an Honorary New Yorker by the board of regents
and I still keep my allegiance and ties to New York in many, many ways including continuing
to support the State Archives and its efforts to help organizations across New York State
preserve history, so I m serving on their advisory board and it s my pleasure to be
here today and hear your concerns. m Patrick Connelly an archivist with the National Archives
in New York and I ve been here this is my third year. I ve been with the National Archives
ten and I started just after Tom and he was my first boss at the Archives. Tom Mills:
What a good thing that was. Right, Patrick? Tom Mills: People who came in late there are
still a couple of chairs up front if you would care to sit down? To begin the rest of the
meeting Dave Powers, Nancy Shader, and Dorothy Dougherty are going to spend a couple of minutes
each giving you introductions about some of the facts about the move from Varick Street
to the Customs House. Which I said is scheduled for probably more like eighteen months out
now. So we have plenty of time to have discussions and get feedback. One comment I would like
to make to start is Yes, the National Archives has two overriding missions. One is to preserve,
protect, safeguard, preserve the records that are entrusted to our care, that tell the history
of the Ffederal government, hold the Federal government accountable, protect individual
rights and responsibilities, and tell the history of our great nation. And preservation
of records means nothing if we don t make them accessible. And ultimately that s what
we are all about. That part, I think, is the foundation, the building block of all our
discussions. So first let me turn it over to Dave Powers, Assistant Regional Administrator
for the Northeast Region. Dave Powers: Good morning, everybody. Thanks again for making
yourselves available and taking the time to come down for today s public meeting. You
have no idea how thrilled we are to be at this point. Some of us, myself included, have
been involved in this project for approximately 5 years, at this point in time. In fact, when
Nancy Shader first came on it was one of her first assignments, as she ll be happy to tell
you a little bit later. But a quick history. GSA came to us in 2005 and talked about relocating
our operations from Varick Street to the Custom House. As a few of you have mentioned this
morning, one look and one visit here, and as we all know with any real estate transaction
it s all about location. We fell in love with the place, we walked around, we saw our neighbors,
we have existing partnerships already in place at Ellis Island, Battery Park across the street,
Federal Hall where we have partnerships, and our eyes were opened and we all came in excited
at the prospect. But in 2005 there was only space available on the fourth floor, here,
we re currently sitting obviously on the third floor. And we looked it at any number of ways
and realized and came to the conclusion that we just could not, you know, make the change
at that point and have a viable operation. The space wasn t sufficient, et cetera, et
cetera. But it opened our eyes, we knew what the rent situation was at Varick, you know,
down the road, and we started our own market survey to see what else was out there throughout
Manhattan to relocate our operations. But obviously this left a lasting impression and
we were always in touch with GSA, some of whom are here today, if anything did come
down the pike, you know, we d be interested in certainly taking a second look. Well, as
fate would have it, in 2007, shortly after the Custom House was celebrating its 100th
anniversary here, GSA came to us with something close to one of those Godfather-type offers
we ve all heard about. And now there was space on the third floor and fourth floor. In addition,
GSA was providing substantial financial incentives for us to consider closely, including significant
rent reductions by moving in here, and also substantial capital outlay on their part,
including a special historic preservation fund that they use for this facility. So needless
to say the phone started ringing at College Park, and New York, and Boston, and we decided
obviously that we had to do our due diligence with this process. So we commissioned a feasibility
study to see if all of our needs could be met at the Custom House. As Tom said, one
of the primary goals was to see if they could guarantee that our records could be safe here,
that they could be protected, preserved, so that not only everybody sitting here but future
generations would have access to records that were properly stored at this facility. So
amongst other things, that came back, obviously, in a positive way, that they could do that
here, something that we cannot do at Varick Street. So that s a major concern of ours,
that we can be in compliance with NARA s strict standards for archival storage, and that the
Custom House will allow us to do that. Now in some of the handouts that you have on your
chairs today there s a chart that shows some of the comparative facts between the Custom
House and Varick. But that is right at the top of the list. Besides the financial incentives,
the location, the partnerships, the fellow from the Smithsonian introduced himself today.
I mean, the possibilities are endless for us to come down here and really develop our
programs, our education and outreach at this facility. So the feasibility study, we reviewed
it, everybody was happy with it, it brought us back to the table, to negotiate further,
and we decided at that point it was time to bring the Acting Archivist of the United States
in for a visit, to take a look at the space. That happened in July last summer, July of
2009, and shortly thereafter we signed what s called an occupancy agreement with a time
table for design and construction that would look at potentially an August or September
of 2011 for occupancy at this facility. So, I could go on and on, it s a 5-year history,
but given three minutes, that s it in a nutshell. For anybody that s interested, at the conclusion
of today s meeting, we would be happy to take you on a tour of at least our space on the
third floor. The fourth floor is in tremendous disrepair at this point and that s about the
extent of our options for today s session. But again, thank you for your time and if
you have any questions throughout the day we ll be happy to answer them. Tom Mills:
Thank you, Dave. Now we ll turn it over to Nancy Shader, the Archives Director, for the
National Archives at New York. Nancy Shader: Good morning. I m not a New Yorker, but I
m a Jersey girl, so I m hoping I get some credit for that. There s two motivating factors
that have really helped us make this decision. The first is our space at Varick Street does
not meet our storage standards. What do we mean by that? We mean maintaining consistent
temperature and humidity, which, without that, it speeds the deterioration of records. Here
at the Custom House we re going to be able to design and build a storage area that meets
those standards, which extends the life of the records. We re very excited about that.
We went around the room, so I ve got a feeling most people have visited our facility at Varick
Street. If you ve been there, you know, to put it kindly, it s not the most customer-friendly
space. More and more law enforcement agencies are moving in. We also have an immigration
detention center, i.e., a jail, at the facility. As a result, the security is getting more
and more strict. The line is getting longer, they re now starting to ask for photo identification
for people to come in, so it s becoming more arduous. And it s not a welcoming experience.
And it may dissuade people from coming to visit us. Whereas here, at the Custom House,
security is provided by the Smithsonian guards who are comfortable with someone who just
shows up without an appointment, who perhaps is not sure they want to come into the building.
So the public s first interaction with us at this space will be a positive, welcoming,
and encouraging thing. And I think that s something we all forget sometimes, is we re
all comfortable coming to an archives, going to a research library. Many people are not.
They think they re not qualified, they have to be a professional genealogist, they have
to be a historian or a scholar or an attorney, and that s not the case. And the National
Archives has the people s records, and we want the people to use those records, and
we believe this location is ideal for that, for us to reach an even wider audience of
people. Now, some things you might not be aware of, is we currently store over 50% of
our records off-site. So everything is not at Varick Street. And we ve had a large portion
of our records off-site, it s going to be 5 years in September. And we ve been able
to provide seamless access to those records even though they re stored off-site. Staff
work with customers to identify what they need, when they need it, and we provide access
to that material. And we re committed to maintaining that. We have experience with it, and we will
work with you to make sure what you need is available when you need it regardless of where
it is stored. So we have a great deal of experience with that. We ve created a preliminary list
of materials we think will come with us to the Custom House. This preliminary list was
created by staff, based on staff experience working with you and other customers. As I
said, it s preliminary, we re looking for feedback, we re going to make it available
to a larger audience. We want to hear from you what you think we should have. Our goal
is to have the best combination of resources at this location to reach the widest audience
possible. So again, it is preliminary, it s in process, and as noted, we re at least
18 months away. So we have time to develop the best possible list. That said, I want
to reassure people: nothing is written in stone. The day after we move, if we ve determined
Ooh, we should have brought this, or we should have brought something else, or we should
shift something around we can bring it back. And we have done that, we have sent things
off-site, determined they should come back on site, and brought them back on site. So
we can be very flexible and adaptable. So even if something is sent off-site, and we
determine later we want it on-site, we can shift the contents based on researcher need
and interest. So something else to be aware of. So, in summary, we re excited because
we believe this is a better move for the records themselves for storage, wider audience, and
better for the National Archives overall. Tom Mills: Thank you, Nancy. And just to clarify,
our current off-site storage is in Lenexa, Kansas, right? Nancy: That s correct. Tom
Mills: And the additional off-site storage that we re planning to help us make the move
to the Custom House is in Northeast Philadelphia a much shorter distance away than Lenexa Kansas.
And now let me ask Dorothy Dougherty, who s the head of public programs and educational
programs for the National Archives at New York City to say a couple words. Dorothy Dougherty:
Thank you, Tom. Thank you all for coming. It s so nice to see so many familiar faces,
and I know a number of you have been either at a program at the National Archives or one
of our partners where we ve provided a program or given your organization a tour and a session
so it s great to see everyone here. We talk about reaching that wider audience and having
a place where we can really reach that audience. That s where programs come in. By expanding
our programs we can also reach that wider audience. But the point of the programs also
is to drive people back into doing research. One thing you will see on that handout is
that our researcher numbers have gone down. So what we ve done over the years is we ve
expanded the programs in the space that we have at Varick Street. Well any of you that
have been to that space at Varick Street know the limitations of that space. So while we
re planning and designing for the space here we realize we can reach a much greater audience
and drive them back into the research room, because that is our ultimate goal. So here
we will have dedicated classroom or learning space, and we will continue the same types
of programs we currently have but on a much larger scale. Currently we do education programs,
we do teacher professional development sessions, we do student school field trips, we also
do a lot of genealogy sessions. Many of them are on request, but we also have a public
series called our Finding Family series that we expect to expand greatly. We also do training,
we also do outreach to Federal agencies, and to the general public. And if you ve ever
participated in any of our larger programs or special events you will see again at 201
Varick that the space has limitations. So when we ve done larger programs we ve tried
to partner with another entity, in the past we ve partnered with the New York Public Library
where we had a briefing on securing our records on a national level, but also on the state
and local level. Over 100 plus people attended that session. We ve done records management
training here at One Bowling Green in the auditorium and that also allowed us to reach
a much greater audience. Last year we celebrated our 75th anniversary, and we were able to
accommodate about 90 people in our small space, but if we had the opportunity to have it here
in this location we could have probably served a lot more people. So having the space here
dedicated in a classroom environment, as well as some of the larger shared spaces that other
tenants in this building occupy, we can also provide more programming. We do expect to
have a traveling exhibit at least once a year, and we will probably have that in the rotunda
space, again, that s shared space with GSA and the other tenants of the building here
but we will also have access to the auditorium. So the possibilities are endless with the
space here, but I would just emphasize that our ultimate goal is to expand programming
and outreach so that people know the National Archives exists. Estelle, you mentioned that
this is a very important resource not just for New York, but for the nation. Many people
don t know that we exist and all the resources that we do offer. So we do want to spread
the word, and we will have a much better opportunity to do that down here. And certainly, as Dave
said afterwards, if you have any specific questions about programs or programs you d
like to see, we re open for suggestions, ok? Thank you. hA%6 hc\h hc\h ph99k gdQ4 [Content_Types].xml
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folHlink="folHlink"/> tyeckley Normal RCrotty Microsoft Office Word NARA Title Microsoft
Office Word 97-2003 Document MSWordDoc Word.Document.8