The American Civil War - Origins, Slavery, States Rights, Lincoln, Fort Sumter

Uploaded by MSLawdotedu on 12.04.2011

good morning everybody and welcome to the american college of history and legal studies it's great to see so many of you here this morning on a saturday
to hear from an expert on the civil war as you know today's seminar is entitled the american
civil war eighteen sixty one to eighteen sixty five
my name is maureen mooney
I'm the associate dean of the college
and at this time i'm going to introduce the dean of the massachusetts school of law for some
brief remarks
uh the massachusetts school of law is the creator of the american college so it's my pleasure
to introduce to you dean lawrence velvel
hello folks thank you let's see if you clap when i finish
dubious dubious
in the extreme
has any how how many of you if any have gone to our law school
okay so I'll try not to be too repetitive
we started the law school in nineteen eighty eight its object was to
provide legal education and economic and social opportunity
to people who were being frozen out in those days
i think we've succeeded uh... very well we have three thousand graduates now
and uh... couple years ago and we use particular techniques which
uh... i think
cause people to become far better intellectually
far better thinkers far a better readers far better writers far better speakers
and a few years ago we decided that we were going to bring those same techniques to
undergraduate education and let me mention by the way low price cause price is only tuition is only
fifteen thousand at the law school and all around us
uh... it's uh... thirty five forty forty five and fifty thousand in new england
uh... so we decided to bring the same techniques to undergraduate education
uh... in the hope of again providing opportunity to people
uh... making them better thinkers better speakers
uh... better writers
and very importantly giving them
a knowledge of american history i have never yet
met an historian who does not think that americans
no far too little about their own history
and relatively that this has and impact
most think an adverse impact i believe
on uh what the country does uh... politically both both uh... domestically and internationally
so that was the hope in
starting uh...
ACHLS where all the teaching as in the law school
is discussion teaching no lecturing where there's
uh... four hours of writing a semester that is uh...
combined conjoined with the substantive courses
uh... where there is no hiding cause there's only a few students in a class and everybody's
required to speak up every day uh... in every way and on every subject that's
a slight exaggeration but not much
and uh... mike uh…mike chesson and and uh... andrea sullivan are where are you andrea
are the folks who teach these people
uh... there she is she's the writing teacher
so uh as as part of our program here at the school we're giving this
civil war seminar
michael and i mike chesson and i are joined at the hip when it comes to the civil war
and uh... i'm very pleased to see so many of you uh... here today so that's it
thank you very much dean velvel
i'm going to read now uh the
biography of our speaker today doctor michael chesson and it's so impressive that i have to
read it so i don't miss any detail so our seminar today will be led again by doctor
michael chesson michael chesson was born in richmond virginia in the shadow of the white
house of the confederacy
he graduated from the college of william and mary magna cum laude in history
after active-duty in the u_s_ navy
from which he retired as a captain in the u_s_ navy reserve
he began graduate work at the johns hopkins university
with the late david herbert donald following him to harvard where where he got his phd
he left the university of the massachusetts u_-mass boston where he was the senior americanist
in the department of history and its former chair after thirty two
to become both the founding professor
and the dean of the american college of history and legal studies
he has written or edited four books and dozens of articles and book reviews
ladies and gentlemen doctor michael chesson
thank you maureen and thanks for coming
saturday morning
you should have a couple handouts in your folders
and the first is
some recommended reading and this is not intended to be the seventy five best books on the civil
it's a highly personal and idiosyncratic list
but I begin with some reference works and general histories and then on pages two three and
what what i've given you is
many different types of history
so there's some regimental histories to there are monographs about women in the civil war about
african american soldiers
uh various topics uh economic history diplomatic history
the civil war is
a universe all to itself
and it's connected with everything else in our history
and i i i preach big tent civil war because no matter what you're interested in
for me there is room under the tent
i'll be referring perhaps to some of those titles as we go along the other hand out just one page
front and back
if you don't like history or maybe you think you don't like history
probably because you haven't been exposed to really
good history
maybe you prefer fiction
this is a selection uh...
of civil war novels
and again written from different points of view
and different topics different periods uh different theaters of the war
uh... including the war within a war in missouri
very violent very bitter
most of those books are available in paperback
and most of them you can get online i hate to say this for independent booksellers but
you can get them from amazon and other online vendors and you can get them
inexpensively helen
you go to harvard bookstore on mass ave they have this great big copier
would you tell them about civil war news
I would like to
this is a newspaper comes out eleven times a year
this uh...
if you want to be up with what's going on uh...
this is the newspaper to have
and also so I won't forget it you will
get a discount if you mention that you attended this seminar
and uh... so don't forget to do that but if you're interested we have
the name and address we can give it to you
but for me the best parts are
the book reviews but
there's a lot of information
and it's uh been around for like twenty years
and I highly recommended it it will
uh... give you a whole dimension of what's going on right now
the publisher uh
I first met her at a civil war forum hosted by dean velvel at the law school in andover
she's a friend of all things civil war as is helen
contrary to what dean mooney said I'm not going to be
the speaker today but I do hope to be
sort of the facilitator of the discussion
some of you know a lot about the war some of you know perhaps less
but you wouldn't be here if you didn't have an interest in it
perhaps a
curiosity about the war so
i'm just gonna throw out some simple questions
and then at the end and going to give you
a test
my first question
for all comers
what caused the civil war
what caused secession
states rights
they wanted to expand slavery

abe lincoln
didn't have a problem
if it existed
he didn't like the idea but
more than anything else he wanted to stop the expansion
from the mississippi to the west coast
actually there's been a whole new movement that people coming back that it was slavery that caused it because in every state
constitution slavery was included
uh... I haven't read it yet but eric voner
is kind of leading the
the uh
uh... again at one of larry velvel's
cicil war seminars at the school
james mcpherson gave a
really wonderful seminar
he also brought up that
didn't want to admit that their ancestors were fighting for something like slavery and
and so going for
the cause was glorious
whereas going for slavery
was not
this is all brand new
that people are taking this theory
and so it's very exciting
uh because
it's exciting because this is
changing what people have been saying for a hundred years
and it's literally brand new so if you've been saying states rights that's what everyone else has been saying for
uh…but it it's isn't going to be kind of interesting we'll see how it's responded to
someone else yeah didn't states rights have something to do with this
well explain
well each state wanted to govern itself have it's own rules
not be forced into
deciding to have slavery or not to have slavery
to govern themselves without interference
of the federal government
and I
thought in all the books that I've read that that did enter a big portion of it and this gentleman brought it up 0:10:56.100,0:10:58.280 so who else
in the south
their economic well-being their quality of life
their living standards
were predominantly dependent on
agricultural society
and having slave labor
to go off and plant and tend and
the crops
was a great economic benefit the idea of taking slavery away
and forcing the landed gentry
to have to pay for labor
to harvest their crops
to raise
their costs of maintaining their cost of living
probably had a very personal and financial
for the folks that were pro slavery
and the idea that there were folks
who were against it
the state
legislators because they were the money people so they would've
I agree that
economics had a huge part to do with it because they had a model that was working
for them
it wasn't working for the poor whites or for the african americans
no but it was working for the ones in power in south carolina legislature and other legislatures
that's what I believe meredith yes I think the economics as you said comes up
to here new england and new york everywhere
that a lot of people up here depended on the cotton to for economic reasons the shippers and
certainly the mills
that old saying money loves money or money likes money money marries money nd
often the south you know it was good if a southern bell married a northern industrialist because of economic reasons 0:12:42.370,0:12:43.350 I agree it's about economics too
it's really about economics
i think the uh...
the industrial revolution was coming up
and slavery would not have worked for that
to have to take care of labor when it wasn't working
so i think it strongly
and about property rights also
but the
our whole the new society
an industrialized society could not operate the same way the
agrarian society had been operating in the south
and so it just was not economical
to maintain a
in a down time
an excess of labor
anyway that would have worked great for the
in an industrialized
country when they're not working
you don't pay them
uh... they fend for themselves
we saw that locally in
in mill strikes in lawrence and lowell
and a lot of other mill towns
well how is it that you could have in the south in eighteen sixty
three hundred thousand slave holders more or less
and five and a half million white southerners who owned no slaves
how does this equation lead to
or allow for
and and war they used the media like we do today 0:14:12.180,0:14:14.930 they they revved it up you know
they made it everybody's patriotic uh duty to
want to
protect virginia
protect carolina south carolina
they had a deep love for their own state to
and uh…you're right so many of them look how many people fought in the cicil war
that didn't own a slave
you know but it
was it was hyped it was
I don't know it's just an opinion I don't have
I couldn't quote you a quote right now that would say that
well that's what I'm looking for was there were there state loyalties in the north
did people love their states up here
ah well some of them did sure they did but a lot of them were paid to go into the
union army
and uh
when the war got going a relative of ours
who had a mother who grew up in the south
they were very afraid that uh england would come back in again we forget that you know
they weren't that far removed from the
american revolution
with relatives fighting in that
and uh I don't know sometimes i think today we're coming back to it because
they don't want people to have a working wage
that's the way I feel now
for somebody to leave the state of massachusetts and argue
oh I can pay two fifty in china now
instead of twenty five dollars in massachusetts an hour
and they're gone and we help subsidize them that's kinda sad it's pretty pretty sad
what did you say that money is married to money
yes money seeks money I know that
I think the north with more
the north felt more as
a region than individually I mean I think
in the south you still had south carolinians
with south carolinians mississippians where in the north
you were new england if you were in new york you were a large state anyway you were
with the economies they were dependent upon each other anyway already more interstate commerce going
you know from dc up I think that had a huge factor in
that the organization for the union army
besides the manufacturing felt where in the states
of the south I think they felt more local
tribe you know you can say tribal to the states
they didn't consider themselves
you know like new england or the mid atlantic they were south carolinians
you know new hampshire was a new englander
so i think that had part of it to do to with
how you had the south
from the north and the north stay together
mary chesson and her famous from dixie or mary chesson's civil war is the more recent
she talks about a
south carolinian she knew and this man said that when he went out
meaning when he went out for a fight
or when he went out to kill
what's his number one priority and it was the local part
his own neighborhood of a particular county
and then it was the county itself
and then it was the south carolina up country
away from the coast
and then it was the state of south carolina and then it was the south
and at the bottom of his priority list what he would fight for
was the united states
I mean there there sense of loyalty was flipped was reversed
and that's judgmental I know but
think about five hundred years from now how people will judge
the current inhabitants
of the globe
so many of whom are intentionally
passionate about
their national
michael I have a question for you sure 0:18:01.450,0:18:05.560 it follows along with faverstrom's point
I have often read that
one of the reasons that the yeomanry
short the poor whites
went along with all this
although they didn't in certain areas like the hill country of alabama an eastern the mountains of eastern tennessee
and west virginia
uh... what became west virginia that
that one of the reasons they went along with this is that people just as is true today
with the capitalist system
were so tied in economically
with the big land owners they made their livings off the big land owners
who as mary points out
had all the money and all the power
that was one of the reasons why it is said
that robert e.lee rejected porter alexander's plea to turn to guerrilla warfare after
because he was lee was afraid that the wrong crowd
would come into power but due to a guerrilla warfare but anyway the question what percentage of the
population was really tied in economically
with the big plantation owners
well it's much larger than the actual slave ownership numbers
would suggest
generally the slave owner
from the slave census of eighteen sixty is the head of household
he's the married father and
he may be a grandfather
it may be an older son
but each one of those slave holders has an extended family
I mean spouses and children and
cousins and brothers and sisters so
there's a web of relationships
tied to each one of those slave holders
so the slave interest
or the slave power as william lloyd garrison called it right over your head there 0:19:59.230,0:20:00.980 the great
the slave power is much more extensive it's a much larger proportion of the white population in the south
than you would guess just from the small the relatively small number of slave holders
the exact percentage
uh... i don't know but it
slavery is like AIDS
it's like cancer
it spreads everywhere
it's a monster
and and it is very hard to root out
it's very hard to exterminate it's very hard to get rid of
think about the sacrifice in this country
during those four years
it destroyed a good part of the south and
and the number of homes
that have lost one or more loved ones
then just before he's murdered
lincoln in his second inaugural he's
he's saying that we are all being punished
for the sin we have committed as a nation
every drop of blood drawn by the sword
to compensate
the blood drawn by the slaveholders lash
the judgments of the lord are true and righteous
he knew his bible he had memorized the book of matthew luke
he corrected ministers when they quoted the scripture to him
he he's an
incredible individual
what he believed is open to question
but he certainly knew his bible and he knew how to use it
he used it as a vehicle
to reach ordinary americans americans who were much more biblically literate
back then uh... a much bigger percentage of the population than is perhaps true
and shakespeare he knew shakespeare if you remember the last lines in romeo and juliet
the duke is coming in
romeo is dead
juliet is dead
they are simply the last of a whole
bunch of deaths between the montagues and the capulets
and the duke is
they're all related to him they're all his cousins
and he says i have lost a brace of kinsmen
because of your stupidity your violence
and he says all are punished all are punished
that's what lincoln is thinking I believe
as he delivers his second inaugural frederick douglas was in the audience
douglas said
we've just heard a sermon
that's a sermon
he's giving us hell
the crowd came expecting to hear a victory speech
and what they get is a jeramiad
the puritans love that
that prose form they love
sermons delivered by their preachers jeremiads because jeremiah an old testament prophet as you know
he would lay down the law
he would give those israelites hell for violating
that's what lincoln is doing in march of eighteen sixty five
helen i recently read
an account of a woman from michigan who
was a kind of well a distributor of sanitary commission goos
when she first went there
she was only going to be giving these goods to michigan people they were raised by michigan people 0:23:35.780,0:23:39.350 and for michigan people and then when she saw all the suffering she couldn't just keep it
she still kept looking for michigan people but
it kind of ties in i think with
this the whole change the united states of america is
versus are which was the big thing shelby foote has that they're gonna repeat the civil war series by the way I think starting sunday
but is was great revelation for this woman that
she shouldn't just think about michigan
and so this is happening everywhere this is in the north
I mean they were changing their views to and so
it's uh
well I'm preaching to the choir here
but this was such a huge
rupture in our country
that it's like nothing else that we've ever
I guess the revolution and this world war one and world war two were important but they
didn't change our whole psyche
foote said this was the crossroads of our being
what happens between eighteen sixty one and eighteen sixty five decides what kind of country we're going to be
decides what direction we're going to go in
this is a huge family quarrel
bloodiest war we've ever had by far
and instead of americans killing the enemy americans are killing other americans
a fratricidal conflict
the best place to see
what helen was alluding to in this woman from michigan is to look at the union army itself
each company
that made up each regiment in the
union army
the volunteers who joined up in eighteen sixty one
are coming from
little communities
or a particular precinct or ward in the big city
but they're local boys
and the names they gave their companies
and initially their regiments
reflect these local attachments
the twentieth massachusetts
is unusual in some respects in that
it's recruited from all over the commonwealth of massachusetts
there are people there from the islands there are people there from boston cambridge
but most regiments are recruited from a particular county
a particular part of a state
little towns in that county
and by eighteen sixty five
they've been nationalized
you see regimental names regimental designations changing from a state name to eighty seventh US regiment
eighty seventh
and regional and local loyalties
affiliations are
being wiped out
somebody's called it the prussian road where we're
on the way now to becoming a great
nation state
modern industrial power
just like the german
principalities thirty eight thirty six
german states are
forged together
by Bismarck into germany
and his approach was called blood and iron but he didn't spill
a fraction of the blood
that we spilled unifying
i think
some incredible fraction of the union army well the southern army too
had never been more than ten miles from their home
when they went away to war
uh... that uh... one question is if that's accurate and another one is
uh in those days when regiments
would lose eighty and eighty five percent of their men sometimes it's unbelievable
people would be cashiered today if something like that ever happened
uh... the first minnesota at gettysburg you know was one of those
regiments in a single day
lost eighty five percent of their men on a charge
there's a title on page three in the hand out richard
the last full measure of devotion
the life and death of the first minnesota volunteers
if you can read that without tears in your eyes I'll have to say you're a better man than I am
here's the question that arises
was it the civil war
or world war one that caused the army to reorient itself so that no longer did battalions companies regiments and so forth 0:28:02.670,0:28:06.880 come from a particular town
less the men in that town get
wiped out
that's happened to bedford virginia
in the uh... in the second world war on d-day
bedford boys yep
so was it the civil war or the first world war
it's both I mean some state identifications do persist
so the richmond light infantry blues
is a private
military club in richmond
that is founded
just after gabriel's revolt the slave conspiracy in richmond in eighteen hundred
and they're
organized to respond to emergencies to crises including slave insurrections
and they join the confederate army
as a regiment
in eighteen sixty one
and they're still around as a regiment in the virginia
national guard
in world war one
and world war two but
after I think immediately after world war two
that identification is done away with
so it is gradual to some extent but
the big change the big push begins during the civil war
two million men served
some of them for only a day some of them for four years in the union army
we've got
a million men in the union army
on june first of eighteen sixty five and by december first
they've been virtually all demobilized sent home
we fight a big war and then
we downsize
that's the peace dividend that we'e all hoping for
I've seen the orders if you look into the official records of the union
the official records of the war of the rebellion by the way
the war of the rebellion that's the official name to this conflict given
by the US congress
it's been called many things but
it's the war of the rebellion
for any good yankee
and there are orders by grant being written
in may and june of eighteen sixty-five saying don't spend any more money on this or that
or the other thing
in washington now it's all about cutting
cutting cutting
professor not to retrograde
but you were talking about the economical side
but i do believe that this course there was a social side
as far as why people were fighting and
i think the civil war was unusual in that it brought two really
two groups of people together for the same cause
there really were people who
were morally against slavery a lot of people
but it bought them with the
other side were their own interests which were economic
we're talking about the economics of it
but it brought those people that had social concerns
the northern abolitionists
who were really about the moral issue
kind of joined them with the
new republican party and it was really about economics
and i thought that was an interesting aspect and also the social part as far as poor southerners
they had aspirations they of course they were economically tied to the southern system anyway
but they also had aspirations it was their way of life
and they had aspirations of probably being
slave owners one day in their society
or their children the chance for their children to rise
so it's a very strong
there is a there is a
that social side as well and I
when I uh
sometimes when we have discussion I don't want to
because people say Lincoln wasn't concerned with slaves he was concerned with the economics 0:31:37.240,0:31:40.050 and I can appreciate that but also that
there were those other people who were really
and that always of course there had been an issue of slavery right from the beginning
when they were trying to draft
a constitution when they were doing the articles of confederation
so there were people that were concerned right from the beginning
concerned and I don't mean to downplay that
part that it's all economics
I think the biggest impact the abolitionist had was not
in the north
but in the south
they terrified white southerners
by eighteen sixty most of these
people who
as dean velvel said had not been ten miles from home in their entire life
they were convinced
that all northerners were like john brown
that all northerners were radical abolitionists that they had supported john brown in his raid on harper's ferry
and that they were going to free the slaves
but it was also clear if you looked at the laws in massachusetts
kansas in indiana and illinois
that white northerners did not want
free or slave living with them
so what would white southerners conclude
that northerners wanted to free their slaves
but expected that the free blacks would then stay right where they were in alabama and mississippi and georgia and virginia
that that was a nightmare from there point of view that that was
that was something they could not get their arms around
they could not conceive of it
which is why so many of them were willing to fight
most of the adult male population of the south
ultimately something like
sixty seventy
percent or higher in some states
was in the confederate army
weren't they true in their thoughts though it took a hundred years
to get equal rights I mean you think about the war ends eighteen sixty-five
you don't have until johnson in
nineteen sixty four really saying that
you're american citizens and you need to be treated
you know it takes eighty years to get from the constitution the civil war your exactly right
we had a debate in this class last night
between the students some of them were taking the side that
school bussing in boston in the nineteen seventies was justified that federal judge arthur garrity was doing the
right thing
uh... that much good came out of school integration or could have come out of it
if it hadn't been resisted so violently
and the other side was saying oh
the the forced integration in boston schools
set education back a generation one debater said
about a hundred years
uh... that that it failed
that it's been a failure from
from the get go
and that
it didn't work
and that that kind of approach by a federal judge acting as a kind of dictator
will never work
and i don't know what
the debater's actually believed because to some extent they were role playing one took the affirmative side and one took the
negative side
but it was a knock down drag out debate in here
all all facilitated by professor difusco sullivan
you know michael uh
apropos of the southerners fear
that the north wanted to free the slaves and have them stay right where they were statement would that work
that's what happened
and that's what happened until the great migration started around nineteen fifteen to nineteen twenty
uh... there's a wonderful book that's just been
uh... written about it which al do you remember i told you about it what's the name of the book by that boston reporter about the 0:35:05.849,0:35:10.329 great migration warmth of another sun warmth of another sun
you want to read a great book
get the warmth of another sun
and now of course i read that just like all the jews in florida
are going back to new york because it's much easier to you know go to the gristles it's right downstairs
so to a lot of the um... african americans in california in the west and the north 0:35:29.390,0:35:33.049 are going back to the south 'cause it's a better place to live in their opinion
I can see at least two of you why don't you come on in there's a seat here
and a seat in the far corner
come on in please join us thank you professor chesson
dare I say
this is a case
that exemplifies
why we created the history college
so that people will
learn among other things
that there are patterns in history and here we have
you know a pattern
uh... reversing itself
and yet for the same reason people want a better life
if you look at
the next to last five on page two
charles b. he has taught history for a generation
at williams college a
wonderful scholar he's written a number of important books
the apostles of this union
is his shortest book
and it may prove to be his most important
it's I'm guessing less than two hundred pages
apostles of this union southern secession commissioners and the causes of the cicil war
the secession commissioners
were appointed by the original confederate government
the first states to secede
from south carolina to
texas texas is out by I think it's march first
of 1861
the provisional government of the united states of america sent
to the slave states that had not seceded
so various commissioners are going to maryland
they're going to missouri they're going to kentucky
they're going to delaware
that's kind of a stretch
the northern county of delaware delaware only has three counties
rhode island has five
the northern most county in delaware is new castle county and that's where Wilmington delawre is
can you guess how many slaves were in new castle county in 1860
it was the most industrialized the only industrialized part of that little state
but they had a visit from secession commissioners and what the secession commissioners are telling the
white people in those border slave states
is join us
help us win the war that's coming
because if you don't
you're going to lose your slaves
the lincoln government the abolitionists they're going to control that government you can tell what a fantasy that was
the abolitionists had no political
part at all
they're not elected officials
with very few exceptions but
the secession commissioners put it in black and white
and - has edited those documents
had them published
anyone who thinks this wasn't about slavery
they haven't read - book fugitive slave act 0:38:37.950,0:38:40.280 where that came from and how that affected the
civil war
the first fugitive slave act
is in our constitution
it doesn't mention slaves or slavery
but it talks about
fugitives from service fugitives from labor
and all the states
all thirteen colonies
new states are obliged
to honor the extradition
treaty that is a sense a clause in our constitution
so if your slave runs away to another state
officials authorities in the other states are obliged to return
uh... that slave
the last fugitive slave act
is an important component of the compromise of eighteen fifty
this is a fugitive slave act that has some teeth in it
because if you do not help the
federal marshals and the local constables
authorities in
your town or your county up here in massachusetts or new hampshire
they're there
are criminal penalties
for not helping
return that fugitive
to the south to his owner
there are about a quarter million free blacks living in the northern states
and some of them have been here since the colonial era in boston 0:40:09.469,0:40:11.640 historic black community
so in some cases free blacks are being assaulted
apprehended kidnapped
taken south
and there are special
uh... judges appointed under the eighteen fifty
compromise the slave act
you bring the fugitive before him
and the judge is going to decide whether or not
this individual is a free black
long resident in connecticut or massachusetts or in new hampshire
or whether he or she is in fact a fugitive slave
if the judge decides that this
individual is a fugitive slave he'll be paid ten dollars
if he decides no this individual is a free black
he's paid five dollars
and that was real money ten dollars
three hundred dollars was a labor a union for a year
a union man's yearly wage
and for three hundred dollars you could buy a substitute
to serve in your place in the union army
grover cleveland did it
abraham lincoln provided an acceptable substitute
no one expected the commander and chief to pick up a rifle and actually serve in the trenches in the union army but he did it as an example
didn't a lot of northerners
weren't a lot at least I read
uh... that a lot of northerners were very upset because this
impressed them
in the sense of the british dragooning people off of ships
uh... in uh... impressed them into cooperating
with something they thought a moral evil I don't follow that question 0:41:48.660,0:41:52.029 well well I have read take garrison
classic statement I think
and these days where we're all told to revere the constitution particularly the original thing
and garrison's model written uh... at the top of the liberator his newspaper just like the new york times
has all the news that's fit to print
was speaking to the constitution because of what michael the provisions michael has alluded
called the constitution a covenant with death and an agreement with hell
and uh a lot of people
that's a classic statement
a covenant with death and an agreement with hell
uh... not only did he call it that he burned the constitution
all of the commonwealth of massachusetts he burned it in boston commons my generation went out and burned our draft cards he burned
the u_s_ constitution
but like garrison a lot of I have read a lot of northerners considered the fugitive slave act
which forced them to cooperate with the posses
forced them into cooperating with what they considered as immorality and they were quite aggravated
and northern states michigan and others passed liberty laws
so in the state of michigan
you do not have to obey
federal law you do not have to
conform to the compromise of 1850
massachusetts too
massachusetts of course
is that state's rights
who do we owe our highest allegiance to
which law do we obey do we
follow U.S. law or state law
it's nullification plain and simple
maybe most people thought it was the law of god
god's law first before state or
there were
statements in congress uh statements during the eighteen fifties by william seward
in the debates in the compromise of 1850 seward
governor of new york
united states senator
lifelong politician career politician
he gets up to the floor of the united states senate
says there is a higher law than the constitution
that was a statement that was going to haunt him
because it brands him unfairly as a radical
1860 he is not nearly as conservative he is not the man he was in 1850 he's changed
he's evolved
if you're an out and out abolitionist you would say well he's deteriorated he
is going away from moral law from god's law more toward man's law but he said there was a higher law
he implied that he had a
direct line to the creator
his colleagues in congress some of them were not as holy as he was
this kind of self righteousness or
better than thou attitude it kind of grates on some folks
it made seward a divisive figure
you see it now in politicians
but yeah yeah yeah look at the primary coming up
well we're in here in the cockpit of politics in new hampshire we are going to have the first primary up here 0:45:11.279,0:45:14.579 regardless of what the sovereign state of florida does
I actually I watch the nightly business report you know
and i think the new york stock exchange
sold or recently sold
to the germans to the german's right
and they have the head of the new york stock exchange and I went crazy because he actually said 0:45:31.910,0:45:36.049 whatever the question was the girl asked him
he said about the global economy is really going to affect us because we do this business now
uh... and we just moved over there and this and that
and he says people are going to have to get over their nationalism
he actually said that
that this is the new global order and
people are going to have to get over their nationalism well my irish goes up at that statement 0:45:57.930,0:45:59.649 the new world order
hitler used that term new world order
i'm not sure if he said that but he did say
people would have to get over their nationalism and I just
shh he really said that
welcome to the united federation of planets star trek actually i think that is what's happening 0:46:21.459,0:46:22.200 communication going so quickly
it is but right
still I don't find it 0:46:28.239,0:46:32.569 that surprising that he said that
if he said it in that tone well if you carry it further then our troops are just going to be global
soldiers of war
you know
and i think we'll find maybe
we don't manufacture anything
it's a bit
going against our nationalism to carry that thought to the extreme we can't even make a bolt that goes on a nuclear sub
what happens
if the bolt doesn't ...
I look at man hole covers and it says made in India
a navy captain was relieved of his command some years ago because on the anchor on
the bow of the ship
you could see in big letters on the anchor korea
u_s_ navy anchor is made in korea
well the thing is i think you're responding
in the same way that people
well not my state first not my country first I mean it's just that it's
it's just such a foreign idea and
but between the communication and everything else as
people were just saying star trek and all that it communication it should bring us together and english is becoming more
and more a common language
uh... it's always a second language
uh…it's none of us know what's going to happen
but it's uh
i think you're experiencing what you're experiencing no I could be i'm an old dog what can I say
getting back to the 1850's you talked earlier about the
view of the southerners and the abolitionists
i think that the fear in the north was also quiet a motivating factor for me
started with the fugitive slave act uh... all of a sudden you have
the federal government sanctioning intrusion within northern states
uh... 1854 the anthony burns fugitive slave case in boston you have thousands
of people coming from all over massachusetts new hampshire as well willing to go for that higher law theory
and saying heck to the federal government
and the president himself here supports
the southern cause sends military up there to make sure they get burns out
the dred scott case follows that up and all of a sudden it's ok to bring your slave anywhere you want
uh mm
the uh...
the administration in washington backed southerners now for three straight administrations
if we don't
strengthen this republican party and get one of our own people in there where's it going to lead to
we're going to have slavery in the north as well
davis said in 1850 that he should
have the right to take his slaves his servants
to newport
or to saratoga when he went on vacation in the summer to
cool off wherever he went in the north but he
feared doing it he couldn't risk losing his valuable property
he said if we had been two separate nations in 1850 we would already have
just cause for declaring war on the north
we had enough
grievances we had enough
damages done to us to justify
declaration of war would be justified can I ask you a question
somebody here mentioned it here today
and one reads it all the time
that uh
maybe the southerners shouldn't have been so angry about uh...
lincoln's position that the slavery where it is
that can stay but you can't expand it
uh... and and the idea has been well
you know it's slavery really wasn't fit
for the great plains for industry
it wouldn't have expanded
i have never i'm asking what your opinion on my belief
i have never believed that because
if you look at south africa
the mines we're all worked by
by slaves
or defacto slaves
and if you look at industry
uh... in the south for example
slave owners used to hire out their slaves to work in industry
so i don't think there's
anything that is done except perhaps
uh... high order physics
that you know
that couldn't do with slaves and that lincoln and the rest of the north
was absolutely right about that
my. ..
slavery was an enormously malleable institution
it's very adaptable
it changes shape
so the slaves can be rented out
hired out leased out
slave polders in virginia who didn't
have enough for their slaves to do whose
farms and plantations were declining they had a surplus of slaves
send them into richmond
during the holidays between christmas and new years
slaves would line up on a particular block in downtown richmond
and hire themselves out to anyone looking for a cook a butler
chauffeur or coach driver or whatever
and they would often interrogate the white person
trying to figure out
if he or she is going to be a good person to work for for the next year
so they're they're they're working for
who has made an arrangement with their owner out in the country and they're sending most or
all of their wages to their actual owner
uh... out in the county
while living in the city
question rod josephson
can I bring this back to the origins of the civil war sure 0:51:55.869,0:51:57.000 I've been
lately about the comparisons between the election the presidential election of eighteen twenty
eight and nineteen eighty actually
i believe
maybe you can comment on this is that the rejection of john quincy adams' philosophies over andrew jackson's philosophies
have created
basically set the
guide for the civil war
adams who wanted equality for
women blacks indians jackson who rejected that idea
and had the trail of tears
that idea as philosophy being accepted by the populace
seeds or made it almost
the civil war almost inevitable thirty years later
well the trail of tears actually takes place under martin van buren
the government of the united states the congress of the united states if they didn't want those native americans moved 0:52:52.580,0:52:54.849 from their ancestral homes
they could have stopped it
uh andrew jackson was an indian killer
he also killed british
uh... canadians and uh…a bunch of other nationalities and all races
maybe not asians
he is bloody
and he goes to his grave with a number of bullets in him
but uh...
democrats jackson uh...
think about jackson's position on states rights
jackson's position on the union
yeah the nullification crisis in eighteen thirty-one and here's a commander in chief who really is
a commander in chief
he said he would lead the u_s_ army into south carolina and he would hang calhoun
from the highest tree
and who backs down in that situation calhoun 0:53:44.549,0:53:49.309 zachary taylor also did almost a similar situation some twenty years later
and he was a slaveholder
he was a career U.S. army officer and he had
a plantation a sugar plantation in louisiana
the same exact thing
separatist if zachary taylor had not providentially died in the summer of 1850 he went to the dedication
of the cornerstone laying of the washington monument he sat out in the sun for four hours with no hat and no shade
and he came back and he asked the slave servants in the white house to fix him a big ball of iced cherries with milk
and he drank this concoction and in four days he was dead
cholera morbus
he is replaced by that household name millard fillmore
the thing about millard fillmore you don't even have to know what he looked like 0:54:37.419,0:54:40.099 think about the pillsbury dough boy
you touch him in the tummy and he giggles
well that's what president fillmore was like
just don't
hurt me
don't threaten me
don't yell at me I'll do whatever you want what ever bill congress sends up to me I'll sign
and that's how we get our compromise of 1850
if zachary taylor had lived
the war might have started eleven years sooner
he was bound and determined to get california in the union
unfortunately that map doesn't cover the fighting in
california there were some skirmishes there
he's going to get californians into the union as a free state
and secure good part of what is now the west coast of the united states
and california's going to be a free state
and he's a slave holder
how do you explain that
he's attacked by southerners by slave holders
across the region
as a traitor to the south
how could he betray his interest in slavery
by bringing californians into the union as a free state
our history is so full of contradictions
and complications
kind of on the same page that you're on I think the 0:55:53.249,0:55:58.369 civil war started with the jackson administration ministration
not because of what you mentioned
but there was a second term of the central bank that they were trying to establish
jackson struck it down
the bank of the united states
nicholas biddle
when the term ended
that was the word.. jackson referred to him as old nick
he implied that biddle was the devil incarnate
he crushed the bank of the united state and was censured
for doing it by the U.S. congress
justice marshall had just died
uh... think a year or two before
ended that second term of twenty
died in eighteen thirty five
here's the federal government trying to get control of the money supply
and jackson kills it
to me that's when the civil war started
that's part of his personal history jackson had lost a small fortune he lost his life savings at the bank
in an earlier life
he hated banks
he didn't trust banks
he certainly didn't want a big national bank
jackson in many ways is a localist he certainly an individualist
but when push comes to shove and it concerns the union
he takes down calhoun and he takes down nicholas biddle
anybody gets in his way jackson is going to confront
let me ask you this question
spotlight for many years and it goes back to the beginning of the war 0:57:29.189,0:57:30.779 discussions here about some of the causes of the war
slavery the economics issue states rights and so forth
do we accept it as.. that the civil war was inevitable 0:57:41.639,0:57:43.179 that it was an irrepressible conflict that the only way we could deal with the issues 0:57:43.179,0:57:45.869 in the 1860s was by a bloody civil war
and if not what other options could
there have been to try to resolve these issues
that's a good question he's absolutely right several generations of historians have been debating this
was the civil war inevitable could it have been avoided
i think right from the beginning
you have virginia and
massachusetts you have completely two different sets of people
virginia which is
gentry who had no idea what the hell they were doing
the first-generation of them died completely until you had the younger sons come in
and then when they started getting healthier
indentured servants became less economically profitable
because they were living so much longer
so that's when slavery became important and also because when you let an indentured servant out of service
you had to give him a gun
which of course bacon's rebellion didn't end so well
so it was safer to have slaves and it was more economical for them
but in massachusetts
you know the puritans they weren't really
you know they were sort of middle class but they weren't quite
gentry and they had learned previously from the problems
in virginia and with the pilgrims
so it was just a completely different
set of circumstances and of course completely different ideas of what life was like the puritans
wanted an ideal society
and having slavery wasn't a part of that at all
'cause they were trying to live to glorify god and stuff like that so
i don't think they could've resolved it any other way really
someone else
could we have avoided this what's the southern perspective
today i don't know that there is a single perspective
you've got Phd's and pointy headed liberals in their ivory tower
academic dens
what's your personal feeling
what do you think
it's a question that philosophers have wrestled with question uh... it's
a question of logic or
how would you if you were trying to do uh... scientific proof in a laboratory
one way to confirm your theory
or one way to confirm that you had in fact invented coldfusion
just to have a
completely independent group of researchers and another laboratory
replicate your results
they do the experiment exactly the same way
they use the same ingredients and they try and produce the exact same results
now how would you prove
or disprove the
inevitability of an historical event
you can't
part of my interest in being here today is
see if there are connections between the american civil war
and what we see happening in the arab world
in contrast
between egypt
where there's been a relatively peaceful revolt
resulting in the overthrow of a leader
and forthcoming change in government
a civil war or bloodshed and right next door we have libya 1:01:09.749,1:01:14.529 where it's very divided and here's a country inevitably headed
towards civil war
and I guess that becomes one of my other questions is in the american civil war
how did the rest of the world see which was the legitimate government
did the rest of the world divide union
versus confederate
and support one or the other but not both
with the economic opportunists
and say uh... you know we still want to important
industrial revolution goods from the north we still want cotton from the south 1:01:47.319,1:01:49.779 we'll take anything we can get
arthur can you address that
one of the things that I heard is that
first of all england and russia had just finished a very expensive war in the crimea that had properties that they wanted to get rid of and they
wanted to sell them to get money because
the other thing to is that
i think the south figured that
with the uh... with cotton
that uh...
great britain put a lot of pressure on them
great britain went around the corner and bought cotton from egypt
but also revived the textile industry and the cotton business in india
right and the other thing
i have heard and I guess there's probably more than one side to it 1:02:34.469,1:02:36.269 the fact that
the british were and the french were both waiting to see the outcome at gettysburg
and they were if the south had won
there was a good chance that they were going to come in on the side of the south
uh... and affect the war at another level
certainly there's evidence that suggests them
sliding that direction
if you look at
frank owsley's king cotton diplomacy uh...
it was revised by his daughter it came out in a second edition in 1959
professor owsley
major historian for a generation he did what
most american diplomatic historians and most civil war historians have not done
he actually went to the british public record office
and he spent weeks and months going through cabinet papers going through minutes of debates
in the cabinet
in the parliament
and he was trying to figure out whether
there was some sort of a quid pro quo that with the english
textile industry and to some extent the french textile industry in desperate need of southern cotton
which was not getting to them
because of the increasing union blockade of the southern coast
did the threat of withholding northern wheat
did lincoln and seward
threaten her majesty's government
with starvation
now if they intervened if they gave full diplomatic recognition of the confederacy and even sent
to america
was the north going to withhold
it's grain
and stop shipping wheat
to the UK
that has been a theory that's been around and it's still around
it's around because people haven't read professor owsley's book
because in going through the primary sources and going through the minutes of cabinet debates and
the debates in parliament
never once
did northern wheat get mentioned
never once did grain being shipped from the north to
great britain come up
nor was great britain dependent on american wheat
what great britain was doing was buying wheat
and other grain where it was cheapest
and when grain prices went down in poland and
russia they started buying a little closer to home
did he talk about cotton
he certainly talked about cotton cotton there was a cotton shortage there there was a cotton crisis
did that come up in a cabinet meeting
it did
uh... you have hundreds of thousands of unemployed mill workers
their families
on the verge of starvation no work no jobs
and the way to support themselves
and the british government decided it was cheaper to put these unemployed mill workers
on the dole
bread and water
on a regular basis
than to intervene in a war where great britain
had no vital interest
and intervene in a war where it might not turn out the way great britain had
can I add something
that relates to what dave..
one of the amazing things people have said
is that the starving textile workers lined up on the side of the north
and that in itself probably relates
richard cobden wasn't he the uh
uh…that in itself probably relates
to their understanding
uh…as uh
jim what's his name put it in one of his books jim mcpherson
uh an irish union soldier replying to his
family in ireland that this fight is ireland's fight
amazing statement and ireland of course was on the other side from england but they understood this was for freedom in
the world
and lincoln you should if you don't mind elaborate on this when I get done in one second lincoln 1:06:40.009,1:06:44.759 understood you know there were the revolutions of eighteen forty eight which got crushed
uh... and of course you know that's was similar to what happened in czarist
russian in 1905 and so on
they understood that that's why lincoln said this was the last best hope of mankind
when you think about it uh uh slavery in the world context
uh... i have read at least mike that the
reason slavery was done away
uh... in brazil
and other parts of latin america about twenty years later
yeah was that
the population of those countries
was so heavily
african based
whereas the united states
the slave holders had such fantastic power
that they uh... it would be too much to say they thought they were immune from the laws of history because
they didn't consider the laws of history were against slavery
but it was all a question of relative power
whereas in the rest of the world slavery was going downhill
and indeed during the civil war
uh…a little known fact it's written about in the 1:07:53.069,1:07:54.849 civil war times or something
the czar
after fighting
england and france in eighteen fifty six
sent his fleet to new york harbor
kind of a warning to the british
so there were all these things that were playing would slavery have been gotten rid of
in the long term
forty years some people say
when the rest of the world was all getting rid of it
and when uh... and when uh... england and france would have had a terrific fight on
their hands
and you know if we had anything to do with it
well if you fought america the wheat would be cut off as mike was saying well yeah
but there was wheat elsewhere
anyhow maybe you want to address that their alternative source richard comden and john bright some of these english
liberals who were pro union and pro lincoln
and pro freedom
they had no influence in the british government
even the ones that served in parliament
they're quite unpopular with the british upper class the aristocracy because they're anti monarchists
so they have very little leverage they have very little
juice as far as affecting
the policy of
of the british government
just following on to what dean velvel was saying
in taking a quick look at the slave trade
as it was going on
you mentioned
peaceful resolution of slavery in brazil
but one of the concerns is but little I have seen
is of all these
west african slave trades
probably less than ten percent of it
came to the united states the vast majority
went either to the caribbean or to the south and the largest single importer of slaves was in brazil
I'm not so sure but my guess is the indigenous people of brazil
were probably not slave owners
and not involved in this so it was the portuguese that had colonized brazil
given the quantities there it very well could be that the slave population outnumbered
the portuguese
you could have a peaceful resolution instead of a resolution that
it's been estimated that only five percent of
the total number of slaves
shipped over the transatlantic slave trade
arrived in british north america arrived in the thirteen colonies or later the united states
before the trade was banned
in 1808
only five percent out of ten million
I uh
i heard something like six percent
uh…but one of those reasons was because th
u_s_ navy had
patrol vessels off the west african coast
that were attacking these people
they were putting the crews of these ships in chains
and sending them back to the states the oldest got special treatment but the slaves the african slaves 1:11:03.729,1:11:04.499 weren't taken back to the land they had just come from they
were taken to libya
because they were afraid that
the slavers would go right back in there and get the people
and bring them over in another boat that's maybe one of the reasons that a whole lot of them didn't get back to someplace like the states 1:11:20.959,1:11:23.569 the navy was there and a matter of fact
the second part of that is the fact tat there was
not to do with conflict going on between that was about a conference going on between sailors about
pro union pro slavery
at that point
let me ask you another question
you've done so well on origins and causes
why did the confederates fire on ft. sumpter
by reports of
provocation I think
try to
get the union to take a stand
one way or the other
southern historians like
like charles ramsdel
years ago argued that lincoln tricked
the south into firing on ft. sumpter
what about the fire eaters weren't they was that the term for them who were the fire eaters 1:12:20.809,1:12:22.300 well they were a group of southerners
that wanted succession I think didn't they control the democratic party down there 1:12:28.730,1:12:32.130 south carolina was only one party
they were very conniving and
wanted to excelerate things
the thing about the abolitionists up here
the other side of that coin is the fire eaters
pro slavery pro states rights
fanatics and they're determined
to take their states out of the union and some of them have been trying since the nullification crisis
1828 - 1831 thereabouts
uh... they they
they don't command the majority
support among white voters in southern states but they've they've tried
repeatedly to
to pull this off
and after john brown's raid and lincoln's
threat election they
they think they can do it
did they do it
in some states like alabama and georgia and others there is in effect a cous d'etat
in virginia too well in virginia think about the 1:13:32.159,1:13:33.259 timing
firing on ft. sumpter
on april 12th
and what happens immediately after the confederates
fire on that fort and compel it's surrender
west virginia that was a little later
but what's lincoln's responce to the firing
blockade well he declares a blockade but it's a paper blockade
you've got sixty ships in the U.S navy but most of them were in dry dock
some of them were in singapore they are around the world it took some of the ships in the u_s_ navy two years
to get back to america
so we have a very small navy and it's even smaller in theory
as far as the ships go out in active service
there are simply not enough ships to
to affectively blockade
more than a thousand mile coastline with
thousands of inlets and estuaries
you could put some war ships off charleston harbor
but are you going to be able to blockade every port along the south atlantic coastline the gulf of mexico down to the mexican
it takes a while
for that blockade to take affect
now the first thing that lincoln does after the firing on ft. sumpter
he calls for seventy five thousand volunteers
to subdue
what he call
a local insurrection
this is just a localized disturbance it's not a war
it's not a rebellion it's
just a minor affair in some southern states
oh by the way I need seventy five thousand volunteers
to subdue this this trouble
but he can't just say
we need them from massachusetts
new york
and new england and the northwest he has to say
everybody that hasn't seceded we need
soldiers from your state what law governs him why does he have to say that
it's the militia act I think that was passed i think in the seventeen nineties
what lincoln is doing is calling out the state militia in effect 1:15:33.430,1:15:36.190 he's calling for volunteers
most clear eyed people knew that state militias were'nt to reliable
they're filled with super anuated characters
they they drill maybe four times a year and some of them don't bring their muskets
march around in the sun for half an hour and then they get tired and then they repair to the nearest tavern
the massachusetts militia
I had a graduate student at U. Mass Boston that did an M.A. thesis on massachusetts' militia he concluded that it was 1:16:03.880,1:16:06.539 the best equipped the best trained
and the most prepared
in any of the northern states
they had reorganized it in eighteen sixty
and they had thrown out men who didn't show up for drills
they reduced the size of the militia but
the men that ran it when this reform ended
were were ready to go
so lincoln calls for volunteers and jim points out
he calls for volunteers not just from massachusetts
he calls for volunteers from the slave states
that have not yet seceded
including north carolina and virginia
tennessee kentucky missouri
and they tell him stick it in your ear
we're not going to send volunteers to suppress our sisters
in the slaves states in the south we're not going to help
you northern dictator
you abolitionists put down
this fight for states rights for southern independence
let me as they say
assay that answer to the question of why did the south fire on fort sumpter
and this is
my own idea
I appreciate you commenting on it one way
or another
it strikes me that there is
shakespeare said there is a tide in the course of human events
the things you get sucked in in life
by what's going on you can just keep going down the same path and one thing
leads to another it leads to another it leads to another 1:17:49.920,1:17:56.349 without anybody ever stepping back and saying whoa whoa where are we going here
my god it's Obama care we're all going to end up socialized you understand that's when people pretend
to look to look down the road
well you had this starting in seventeen
with the constitution and uh... it's slave provisions
and by the time the eighteen fifties came along
they were screaming at each other
guys were getting caned on the floor of the senate
people began to think
this louis cahn fight is a fight that everybody wants to see you know what you know what I'm saying
yeah members of congress are coming armed revolvers derringers knives stillettos
it's very much and here's the real crux of the thing as far as I'm concerned if there's any merit to this position 1:18:42.889,1:18:46.069 these something
it is not so different from vietnam it is not so different from Iraq after the first couple of weeks of Iraq
you get in and it's not so different from what just happened in libya
you know you keep hearing about it you keep hearing you we gotta do this we gotta do that
you do this you do that
that leads to something else
and by the time they fired on ft. sumpter
that was the third there had been two attempts to relieve ft. sumpter just by bringing in
one the guy turned back and the second was the famous star in the west
they shot at it
they shot at it cadets from the citadel
so I mean it was just
life and events take their course and they suck you in
and you know maybe that had something to do with it
dean can I ask you what you meant by slave provisions in the constitution 1:19:38.809,1:19:42.749 well mike what might referred to which is that that people have to be returned to
there's a provision in there isn't that how it's worded people who had fled service
yeah the provision is that
membership in the house of representatives the lower house of congress is going to be aportioned
based on the white population in the states
and three fifths of all others
now who were those three fifths who are we talking about
the word slave
doesn't appear in the constitution or the bill of rights
but the representation that the slave states got
from the u_s_ congress
the house was
considerably higher than it would otherwise have been
you know when you get right down to it
mike can go right down the years for you
that three fifths provision which was 1:20:35.369,1:20:37.110 certainly by the eighteen forties and
fifties fifties anyway
a real bone of contention in the north
it assured that the federal government
was under southern control from seventeen ninety
to eighteen sixty
because they just had more congresspeople
the president's all came from virginia for the first thirty or forty years almost all
except for john quincy adams and john adams
it just gave the south
uh... unlimited not unlimited but
disproportionate power and mike wasn't it the fear of losing the disproportionate power
as you got territory non slave territories brought into the union as states
as lincoln would have had it
this was a real concern to the south it was going to lose its control over the american government
which i a m
bound to say it never has
the fifteenth amendment comes along lost the three fifths just nullified 1:21:37.439,1:21:39.239 because there are no such
it's not until the 14th and 15th
the 14th citizenship and due process the 15th
the right to vote for men only
so now the suffragettes got left out we don't know quite how that happened but
elizabeth cady stanton and susan b. anthony and the others were quite bitter about it
but the reward
here's the reward for treason
that's given to the former confederate states
after 1870
instead of three fiths of their african-american population being counted
for representation purposes in the house
it's five fifths
so the southern states the confederate states
get an additional fifteen to twenty representatives in the house
and none of the black people can vote
that's the kicker minutes and one of those amendments has a provisions that if the
rights are not protected
and their right to vote is not respected and the citizenship rights
then representations of such states can be reduced
that has never been enforced
it's a law with teeth in it but it's never been enforced there is a provision in
the constitution which only a few of us antique characters know about
because reapportionment it came up with reapportionment in nineteen sixty one two three
that the constitution
provides to every state
a guarantee
of a republican
form of government
never enforced
never enforced
one man one vote
except in the U.S. senate
so montana
nevada montana they got more sheep than people
they've also got more senators and
representatives actually I think they do now have two representatives in montana but
whether you're a huge state like california and new york
or a very small state like rhode island and delaware
they all get two senators
that's not proportionate
that doesn't conform to one man one vote it doesn't conform to U.S. supreme court's ruling
let me say the u_s_ supreme court
often never having the courage of
uh... reasonable convictions such as the with the privileges and immunities clause which I'm not going to get into
did not ground reapportionment
uh... the republican guaranteeing a republican form of government it grounded.. 1:24:09.089,1:24:13.309 the republican form of government clause has never been enforced
unless maybe dorr's rebellion in eighteen forty eight
don't go to providence don't go to the state capitol
and tell the old tour guide in the building about dorr's rebellion
because one of these characters told me
we never had a rebellion in rhode island that was you southerners you rednecks down south 1:24:35.559,1:24:38.489 we didn't have no rebellion in rhode island door's rebellion was a fight between 1:24:38.489,1:24:39.789 two parties two groups
rhode island in the state legislature
for control of the state
so they had a little a
little small-scale insurrection in rhode island
isn't there another provision in the constitution though that implies that slavery
was supposed to end in 1808
that was the slave trade the trans-atlantic trade
did that imply that the framers thought slavery
would be fazed out in twenty years after ratification
lincoln in his cooper union speech uh... early in eighteen sixty one in new york city
lincoln did a lot of historical research
and he found evidence that convinced him
that the framers of the constitution the founders of the country
wanted slavery to go away
maybe they weren't abolitionists but they're anti-slavery they put
measures in place to do
do away with it
and one of the provisions in the constitution said that
the international slave trade could be banned in this country
but no sooner
no sooner than twenty years after
the constitution was ratified
and that ninth state ratifies
and then you get the tenth in seventeen eighty eight
twenty years after
that date
january first 1809 you could no longer legally bring slaves into this country
from outside
you know
we don't we haven't mentioned it yet today
but i don't think anybody would gain say
that we have britain
and the royal navy to thank for the ending of the slave trade absolutely
uh... and uh...
the royal navy was after these guys
I just read yesterday or two days ago that the last ship that was captured the last two slave ships that were captured
were i think in 1859 and 1860
and if I remember correctly the royal navy would take them I may not remember correctly I think the royal navy
would take them to london and they'd be hung from execution dock
if you've ever been in london where they hang the pirates
uh…and wilberforce there's a major basketball power in ohio
wilberforce university
and I guess that's named after
wilberforce oh yeah
he was responsible in england
for the beginning of abolition and then it jumped the pond as they say