Web accessibility in civil society: Persons with disabilities in today's educational environments

Uploaded by Dartmouth on 02.02.2011

>> Hello and welcome.
I'm Denise Anthony from the Institute for Security,
Technology, and Society and we are very happy today
to welcome our distinguished speaker,
Dr. Cyndi Rowland who's gonna be talking
about Web accessibility issues.
I wanted to mention that this talk is part
of the Dartmouth Center's forum theme this year on "Speak Out!
Listen up!"
And I think that's very relevant because if you want to speak
out you-- and use technology, you have to be able--
everyone has to be able to access it.
And certainly if you wanna listen up which means, you know,
getting access to information or resources,
if those are online then we wanna make sure
that those are accessible to all individuals and all groups.
And some of you might be here
because I think there is now a little bit more public attention
to, especially accessibility of college websites and resources.
So I've been just looking at The Chronicle
of Higher Education has had a couple of stories.
They covered a study, an NSF-funded study, in the summer
in which they found that college webpages remain widely
inaccessible to people with disabilities.
Let's see.
And he also said something that I think should be familiar
to the computer security and privacy community,
too many of whom are here today.
But the idea that accessibility issues are often addressed
after the fact.
People build the website or build the online resource
and then say, "Oh, let's make--
we need to make this accessible," and they do it
after the fact and we know that security
and privacy is often created in much the same way it's developed
and then people say, "Oh, how are we gonna make this secure
or keep the information private?"
So, I think that there'll be lots of interest in that.
I also wanted to mention in the December Chronicle article
that was-- that highlighted the best and worst college sites
for blind students and it looked at 183 universities.
And Dartmouth was ranked number 53 which I thought was
at least we were on the top third
and I think that's a-- that's a good thing.
But obviously, we ourselves have a lot to learn and--
in making our resources accessible
to all of our students.
So with that in mind, please join me
in welcoming Dr. Cyndi Rowland, she is the Executive Director
of WebAIM which is a community of developers, webmasters,
individuals with disabilities and others who's goal is
to make web, the web more accessible
to people with disabilities.
And she's also the technology director of the National Center
on Disability and Access to Education, both of which are
at Utah State University.
So, Cyndi, welcome.
>> Thanks, thanks.
And I'm excited to be here.
It's my first time in a handover.
Oops, I guess I should not walk to-- I'm a wanderer.
So, I promise that if I wonder I'll pick up the lovelier mic.
[Laughter] Alright.
So, what I can-- what I can mention here is that we've got
about 50 minutes or so.
And I wanna make sure that this time is relevant for all of you.
Of course I've prepared way more material
than I possibly get through.
And I just wanna get a sense of the content
that folks we're hoping to hear.
So let me ask this question first.
How many of you are familiar with the phenomenon
of web accessibility as it pertains
to people with disabilities?
Little show of hands.
Okay. How many folks would say, "You know what, I'm kind of new
to this and could use a bit of a primer."
Okay, so we're pretty well split.
So what I'm going to do is go through some of the pieces
that I have prepared which do walk through the phenomenon.
For those of you that are more experts,
you can comment as you'd like.
But I would like this to be informal.
I'm sure much to the chagrin our videographer [laughter]
who then won't have the audio for that.
So, at any point in time please just jump in.
Let's have this time be an interactive time,
a time where folks can get information that they like.
And before I do hop in, anyone wanna shout
out what they are hoping to learn or to get or to interact
with in the coming hour?
[ Pause ]
>> Yeah.
>> I do a bit of sort of web development in my spare time
and I've gone through sort of phases where I'm
like a huge nerd for making sure that all
of the HTML is [inaudible] correct and, you know,
you're separating out the--
the visual, designing from [inaudible].
>> The content from the-- yeah.
>> Right. And then I've kind of bounced down from that
and said like, well, but you know, I'm not sort
of seeing these users that I am supposed to be optimizing
for and-- I guess this sort of like tension
between the real [inaudible] that it takes
to make a semantically correct, an accessible website.
And the sort of like difficulty from a developer's perspective
of seeing the value that you get from that,
how did you go [inaudible]?
>> Okay. We will definitely talk about.
Any other things folks would like to visit?
>> I like to know what kind of standards are upheld and try
to look at all that so if this accessible or not accessible.
>> Okay. We can do that too.
>> And how big is the-- we wanna think about it as a problem,
how extensive is this.
How-- what do we need to do something about it
and what would that take.
>> Okay, good.
So, I've got these three.
Well, at certain points when I think I've covered it,
I'll ask you guys if I have.
And if I haven't, you know, just keep [inaudible] me, okay?
Anything else?
Alrighty. Okay.
So, this is no surprise to anyone.
The web has completely transformed our society.
I'm sure you all feel that as do people with disabilities.
But the effects for them are--
are certainly different than the effects that you feel
because they're seeing this transformation that is just
out of reach for them.
So a question that I have is--
oh, before I get to the question.
Here is my kind of advanced organizer for the session.
This is stuff that I prepared.
I wanna talk briefly about the context, the user experience,
a little bit about laws.
And then in WebAIM's journey I'm gonna make sure I hit all
of the questions that you guys have.
But, you know, when you think about your own experience,
you know I'm thinking about the very first question
that you brought up which is I'm not seeing the benefits
from my use-- there-- or my-- the expenditure of my time.
And I had an interesting conversation.
I think it was with you, Tom, we were-- Wait, wait a minute.
It was somebody today who indicated
that on this campus there are no individuals who are blind.
Does any-- would anyone want to counter that assertion.
This is--
[ Inaudible Remark ]
>> Well, I didn't have that conversation with you but--
>> Oh yeah.
>> On graduate program and certain students facilities
and that is true as far as I can tell
and has come to us from services.
>> Yeah. Which is very interesting in and of itself
because the national data on students that enroll
in postsecondary education with vision impairments
or even just the general population,
4 percent of the general population have severe vision
impairments as in they are blind, legally blind,
something what you would--
have an expectation that they would need an accommodation
of some sort.
So if Dartmouth College has none of that, well,
I'm just wondering what that's saying,
so I'm thinking back to your experience.
You are-- I'm assuming doing some of your work
for the college and you're wondering why am I doing this.
There may be a different context that play,
one that we can't entirely discuss here.
But it's-- I think it's an interesting discussion to have
at the level of the college.
Because why would it be that there would not be, you know,
predicted levels of participation by people
with disabilities on this campus.
And I hate to use the bus analogy but I'm going
to at this point in time.
There was before the Americans with Disabilities Act,
the ADA was enacted, they were getting comments from lots
of people when bus drivers and owners
of bus companies were pushing back saying, "Well,
why would we need to put lifts in our buses because no one
with wheelchairs ride our buses?
Why are you making us do this?"
>> And of course people with disabilities said,
"We aren't there 'cause we can't get on the bus."
Is there a possibly of phenomenon here
that some students who might want to come are
at a disadvantage, and maybe not.
Actually you guys have had a lot of efforts
in making your sites accessible.
So I'm not trying to infer that that's, you know, the case.
But it does speak to your issue of, you know,
where are my efforts going if I'm not seeing these people?
So, we've got lots of folks who are disadvantaged
by inaccessible web content and I'll get
to a better definition of that in a bit.
But folks that have vision problems, folks that are deaf
or severely hard of hearing, which actually is me in any bar.
[Laughter] You know,
I automatically have a hearing impairment is what I'm
telling you.
And a lot of you have hearing impairments in labs
if they are-- if there's a requirement for them
to be really quiet because he can't turn off the sound.
So you functionally have a hearing impairment yourself.
Motor function refers to the dexterity.
Sometimes people don't have the control, the stamina,
the precision to use standard mouse and keyboard,
certainly individuals with cognitive impairments
and that runs the gamut from traumatic head injuries
that we may see in individuals who've been in car accidents
or returning veterans.
We may see that in folks that have developmental disabilities
or even some serious learning disabilities would be
considered, you know, a cognitive impairment.
Seizure activities, and then the last one, age-related processes,
actually I'm starting to now fall into that which is,
you know, combinations of any of the above.
So those are typically the folks that we're talking
about when we are talking about web accessibility
and what is-- what it is affecting.
So what does it affect?
Well, it affects the web, and I'm skipping ahead in my content
but I'm gonna do it anyway.
About eight and a half percent of the US population,
this is based on a census in 2000.
We can't wait to get our little mitts on the--
this last, you know, census.
But about eight and half percent
of the population have disabilities of an extent
that you would expect would inhibit web or computer use.
So we've got some text about who it-- who it--
is gonna impact and the amount
that it will-- would likely impact.
But then a question is what does it impact?
So just throw out some ideas.
So, how are you guys using the web?
Some of you are students, some of you are faculty,
some of you are staff.
So, what web content are we talking
about here at this college?
>> Web documents that we use for assignments and then podcasts
for like audio and video and [inaudible].
>> Great. So course content.
Okay. So that's one.
What's another piece of web that if you are one of those
in the group you might be using that?
>> Web-- sometimes survey, even a quiz online,
or even just other kinds of survey online.
>> For-- for specifically for classes.
>> For class.
>> So, I'm thinking assessments within class.
Okay. So that's another.
Any others?
>> Online research [inaudible] library.
>> Perfect.
>> Ticket purchases.
>> Exactly.
And what's your favorite ticket to purchase here on this campus?
>> Me?
>> Yeah.
>> Dartmouth football team.
>> Okay, alright.
[ Laughter ]
>> And you probably hate to relegate that to someone else
to have to purchase for you.
They might get the wrong seat.
Put you on the wrong side.
That would be--
>> Yeah.
>> Horrible, horrible [inaudible].
Anything else?
It's interesting that mostly, with the exception of football,
you guys have been talking about the student side.
What about staff and faculty?
Do any of you need the web to conduct your job?
Oh, I do and frankly if I didn't have it,
I think they'd have to just let me go.
We've got just a lot of things happening in the web,
things that maybe you were thinking and you thought, oh,
this is too schmaltzy to be really talking
in a group this size, so I'll just sit and think
about it but not say it.
We actively recruit students using the web.
That kind of front page PR piece is so important.
Do you know that it cost about 4,000 dollars
to recruit a single high quality student on a college campus?
And to the extent that we are wanting to recruit
from diverse communities, it is a very expensive proposition
to think that you're going to get high quality individuals
with disabilities if your web presence that you're using
to recruit isn't even available to them, so forget about it.
[Laughter] Of course the admission process,
the financial aids process.
I even think about housing.
I think about employment not just of students
but also of faculty and staff.
Of course the courses and the assignments
and the assessment processes are part of that.
But what about the campus newspaper?
'Cause assuming that's all digital now, correct?
And I bet-- I'm assuming
that Dartmouth has a Facebook presence
and uses other social media possibly to-- or the--
is Dartmouth using Twitter, does anyone know?
They are. Okay.
Other social media outlets?
Does Dartmouth an island on Second Life
or anything like that?
[Laughter] No.
[ Simultaneous Talking ]
>> I don't know.
>> YouTube.
Okay. Which-- up here.
I guess is where this is gonna land somewhere,
so the question will be will this be captioned?
If you are an individual who's deaf,
could you understand what my lips are saying right now?
I don't know.
So we got a lot of uses for the web and it's-- it's very--
it's not just segregated to departmental offerings
and course catalogues.
It's not just segregated to classes
and assignment and testing.
It is everything.
It is how the staff member-- in fact, Denise,
are you gonna process--
who is processing in your office my travel?
>> Nicole, Carol or Sarah.
>> Oh well.
>> And they are not here.
>> Okay, okay.
So Sarah is gonna have to get
into Banner [phonetic] to process my travel.
I can tell you right now Banner would not allow Sarah to do
that if she had a visual impairment.
So then who does the job that Sarah is suppose to do
so that my travel gets processed?
It is a huge problem in high red and I should say
that I'm using education as one sector as an example
because I could be having the same conversation
if I was talking about business, if I was talking
about government, if I was talking
in any other social sector,
we could be having a parallel conversation.
But I figured you guys wouldn't want to have
that conversation as much.
We know that we are all moving along here in using the web
to teach 21st century learning skills.
There's this wonderful dance that happens.
How did-- how did you guys learn to use the web?
Anyone? Well, if you're like me, you learn to use it by using it.
So to the extent that any one else did it for you,
you didn't learn to that.
And that is what's happening a lot for our students, faculty
and staff with disabilities.
In our process to help them out, we work around the web
and have someone else do it for them
which renders them frankly impotent
when they leave this campus
in having harnessed the power of the web.
But we've got lots of learning management systems.
We got lots of open source materials,
very cool Web 2.0ey things, mobile technologies
in education have just gone just crazy,
gaming and immersive environment as well.
If any of you are on Second Life, I had mentioned
to someone earlier today.
I'm Cyndi [inaudible] on world, so come and find me.
And in education, we're not only dealing
with our own campus stuff but were dealing with how it is
that we are collaborating with other campuses,
sharing distance learning opportunities and sharing
across country borders.
A number of countries, and we'll get to this a little later
as well, have regulations that deal with accessibility.
So to the extent that Dartmouth is not on board
with it right now which actually it is.
I can-- I-- that's my sense of it.
A lot of work to be done
but I think theoretically folks are on board here.
To the extent that this work is happening,
you're gonna be better positioned to move out in this--
in the ways in which technology is innovating right now.
>> We know we've got to deal with lots of issues
of coordination, collaboration, interoperability across lots
of different technologies, different media, all of these.
So, we have already talked about this data.
I'm trying to think if there's anything on here that you--
that I didn't mention.
Oh, I guess it would be that about 9 percent
of incoming freshmen are reporting a disability.
Is that consistent with what you're seeing here?
>> Yes.
>> It is. So, you mirror that
but you just don't mirror the latter.
>> Yeah, the demographics of that 9 percent.
>> Are different.
So, more students that have registered themselves
with your office have learning disabilities.
>> Have what [inaudible] of disabilities
that could include the so called learning disabilities.
>> Right, right.
>> That's a phrase I avoid insidiously.
>> Cognitive disabi-- ?
>> Learning disabilities.
>> Learning disabilities, yeah.
Well, that is--
>> I think is an accurate.
>> Yeah, it's certainly controversial [inaudible] that.
Okay. Yeah, yeah yeah.
>> I have a question.
So, it's very hard for me to, well, comprehend, to read just
about anything that has moving context-- contents.
So a page with a cycling image basically
or probably lowers my reading comprehension by maybe like,
I don't know, 30 percent 50 percent?
Is that a problem that-- I can-- I totally.
I cannot, I physically-- I'm physically repulsed by webpages
that cycle flash ads that have moving images
that I cannot stop.
So, I'm well equipped to deal with that but does something
like that count for cognitive impairment or--
I imagine there are people who have this, who are more inclined
down the-- you know, to the Asperger, autistic, whatever--
whatever that spectrum is.
Does that count [inaudible] with cognitive disability?
>> Yeah-- well, what I can say is the phenomenon you're
describing co-occurs with people that have--
I mean, I can answer almost the mirror of your question.
It is common for people that have cognitive disabilities
to have a problem with that level of focus and attention.
Because as soon as some stimulus starts distracting,
the attention goes there and it's hard
to get the attention back on to the main content.
At the same time, it doesn't mean that the presence
of that somehow is diagnostic of a cognitive disability.
And I don't know about the rest of you guys,
but I myself am personally repulsed
with the flashing, strobing.
It-- physically I have a moment
where I think am I gonna throw up or get a headache.
And I have to go, I have to make it go away.
So, I think that that is something
that happens to a lot of people.
A long time ago WebAIM created a simulation on having an overload
of cognitive function, not that we were really thinking
that we were simulating an individual
that have a cognitive disability.
But it was really interesting to get a lot of visual stuff
on the page and you're supposed to somehow be focusing
on something else and it's just nearly impossible.
So I think that that is something
that is a common experience not only for people
with cognitive disabilities but apparently
for the rest of us users.
And we are probably considered that just really bad usability.
And there's a nice overlap between accessibility features
and usability features I might add.
So, did I answer that question?
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> There was a talk by [inaudible]
of West Point sampling when interfacing violating the users
for whatever commercial advertising game that--
so, he collected real examples of those interfaces,
of those webpages, all sorts of profound [inaudible].
But the interesting thing for me was
that I just couldn't deal with those pages.
>> Yeah. I don't know, I think we're all wired little
differently and, you know, your neural pathways--
I don't know why my computer is doing this,
but I will tell it to stop.
[laughter] But they give you a headache.
Alright. So, I just wanna remind folks that if
at any point anyone is thinking, well, would we do this
for such a low, you know, percentage of the population.
I would wanna remind folks of the importance
of including everyone in our society because that is
when our society benefits maximally.
And I think you all knew this little individual here,
Stephen Hawking who has severe disabilities and is one
of the most brilliant minds in our world today.
And if wasn't for technology, we wouldn't have some
of these discussions that we have as a result to his work.
Alright. I wanted to just spend--
I'm gonna hope to spend 8 minutes tops,
talking about the context of users with disabilities
and I'm gonna breeze by a lot of stuff just because it's already
after 5 and I need to get moving here.
But we'll see.
Okay. So, we've got folks who are blind or have low vision
and if you happen on the webaim.org website,
you'll see articles, you'll see some video that we have there
and then you'll see this very, very old,
very tired screen reader simulation.
But I'm gonna play it just for one minute, so those of you
that have never heard that-- in fact let me ask that.
Is there anyone here for whom hearing a screen reader would be
a new experience?
Okay. Alright.
So, if I'm blind, what's happening
if I'm gonna use a piece of assistive technology
that is going to read essentially the code,
a string of code that's gonna read the HTML that is back there
in a way that's logical.
And let me, I believe I've queued this
up so let me go to it.
Okay. So I'm not even going to-- look at that, 2000,
this is how old this is.
It's hysterical.
And you are going to hear it at a very low rate of speed.
Screen reader users listen to their web cont--
content about 10 times as fast as you're gonna hear it.
But what I'm gonna do is have you listen just for a minute
and I'm not even gonna let you see the page
that you're looking at, but I want you just to kind of hear
and see if anything is making sense for you, okay?
>> University of the Antarctic home, table with 3 columns
in 7 rows link, graphic, link for prospective students,
link graphic number nine hundred sixty-five billion,
one hundred fifty-one million,
four hundred eighty-one thousand nine hundred fifty,
link graphic number nine hundred sixty-five billion,
one hundred fifty-one million five hundred thirty-five
thousand, nine hundred ninety, link graphic link for alumni,
link news vertical bar,
link calendar vertical bar, link campus diverse.
>> Okay. So how is that?
How would you like to experience the web this way?
And what was up with the goofy numbers?
Any-- any ideas?
>> Colors possibly, the colors in the text.
>> That's a very good-- this was written so--
and let me explain to you what has happened.
Let me go to.
Okay, so this is the 10-year old site
and I'll tell you 10 years ago this was just a hot design.
University of the Antarctic,
learning like the penguins is the moniker for this university.
We created this template just for the purpose
of the simulation and it's an image map.
So the goofy thing that you were hearing was actually some
coordinates on the servers.
You know, screen readers try
to find any information that's logically intuitive
and can pull it out.
And not it would do that differently.
But any-- any kind of contents
that a screen reader cannot find automatically,
it will just grab when it can.
So things that are images, that are not text elements need
to have text elements put in.
That's as simple as that.
Okay. Now, I'm gonna have you listen one more time.
Let's see.
I'm gonna take this out.
Alright. And I'm going to go into the-- a class calendar or--
I'm sorry, class schedule and I want you to listen.
It's a big snowy day, first day of class and you need to find
out what room number your Biology 250 class will be in.
Because you don't wanna go to the wrong place,
you know it's a snowy day.
So let's have you listen to this [inaudible].
>> Link survival classes vertical bar,
link fixed new vertical bar, link apply vertical bar,
link library vertical bar, link history,
link contact information vertical bar,
link class schedule verti-- enter.
Class schedule supplement.
Link back to home page.
Class schedule supplement, the following classes were added
after the official schedule was printed.
This page is updated daily at 2300 hour
so availability is current as of yesterday at that time.
Table with 10 columns in 5 rows, department code, class number,
section, max enrollment, current enrollment, room number, days,
start time, end time, instructor, bio 100, 1, 15, 13,
5, Mon comma Wed comma Fri 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock,
[inaudible] 100, 2, 15, 7, 5, 2 comma Thu 11 o'clock,
12:30 [inaudible] 250, 1, 15, 9, 6,
2 comma Thu 9 o'clock, 10:30 [inaudible].
>> Okay, how'd you do?
What room you going to?
>> 2 comma Thu.
[ Laughter ]
[ Simultaneous Talking ]
>> That was great.
>> So, question.
>> Yeah. Do people actually develop an ability to keep track
of this possibly going on?
>> Well. No, you know-- and this is
of course showing a problem, not a solution.
You would be amazed at the auditory recall of folks
that have had to deal in these environments.
So yes, some can.
But this is not what we wanted to have people do.
>> So, a direct question will be then since all
of this webpage is an object, so [inaudible] you would want
to be able to interact with like querying it, saying give me
after you actually located the table
and heard the rows and columns.
>> Right.
>> Instead of listening to the stream,
you want to say give me the third column and the second--
>> Or what-- for folks that are creating web content
in standard code, there is a way
to link your table headers with your table rows.
Oh yeah, [inaudible].
And the data in the cells are associated with both of those.
So, all the better that I can find out that Biology 250,
let's say if I follow that, that room number is 6.
That's all the better, which is of course where we are now.
For those of you that are web developers, you're doing
that now and you've been doing it
for your [inaudible], correct?
>> Are there browsers--
are there browsers that would support the plug-in
to query objects?
>> Well, I think-- I don't even know that that's necessary
because I think that the work
around is executing appropriate standard code.
So that you know, that the data cells are gonna be associated
with the headers and the rows.
>> The standard language
for this would be XQuery or XQL, right?
So, I could imagine let's say players on this game, right,
it's a [inaudible] game who programmed their clients--
>> Right.
>> -- can easily get the gist of XQL.
>> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
One of the reasons that I brought up this example is
that I wanted to make the-- I wanted to juxtapose accessible
and usable for you guys.
This information that you heard was accessible to you
because you heard it, and it was completely unusable value.
So we got to make sure that as we're talking
about accessibility, we're not just talking
about can elements be detected, rather can they be used
by the individual that's receiving that content.
And that seems to be a huge problem in the education space.
And I'm not entirely sure I know why,
maybe it's sometimes we're not thinking of how it is
that a user needs-- how they're using the information I guess is
what I'm thinking.
Okay, so let me get out of this real quick and go back.
So that was just a really quick--
and Sarah, you guys have--
do you have like in a lab here JAWS loaded
so people can hear their stuff, okay.
If anyone is interested in listening to their own content
on the screen reader, you can go to freedom scientific
and you can get free 30 minute uses, 30 minutes at a time.
They have it pretty tightly controlled.
Okay. I wanna just mention that when we're talking about vision,
we're talking about an array of things, we're not just talking
about blindness but also color blindness.
So here we go, this is your pop quiz.
Okay, green mushrooms, okay to eat
and the red ones will kill you, alrighty.
So, which ones are you guys eating?
If you had color blindness,
essentially this may be how you would experience the page.
Now as an instructor, I know that this is how I designed it.
But to the extent that I ever use color alone
to denote important content, boy, I could be disadvantaging,
let's see, I believe it's 5 percent of the male population
and 2 percent or something like that of the female population.
So that's the easy one.
And in fact for those of you
that are web developers vischeck.com will allow you
to see your content in an array
of different color blindness schemas.
The last pieces of vision impairments are those
that have low vision.
Essentially they blow their text up to an amazing degree
and you wanna make sure you're using real text
and not pixelated text.
But of course we've got folks
that are deaf and hard of hearing.
And you know how-- you know how that is,
you need to provide captions.
It's really not that tough.
I'm gonna show you a quick little video of one of our--
at least I think I am, one of our users.
>> If a person refers to me
as being disabled, it doesn't offend me.
I feel that, yes--
>> By the way, this is captioned and I have no idea
where the captions just went.
I think it's 'cause I-- I didn't open it in QuickTime.
Anyway, my apologies, this is typically captioned.
>> In-- I guess technically I am disabled.
I have an inability to hear.
However we're more of a linguistic minority.
>> This is where the sound begins.
>> Oh really.
I wouldn't have even known that.
I would have just been aware of the visual picture but not
of the auditory stimulus.
So it seems like there's some kind of interaction or swamping
that takes place here.
[ Inaudible Remark ]
[ Pause ]
>> And then it looks like I guess this is coming
to the heart and then it's passing
out another section of the heart.
That sign is hard to read.
I'm guessing that there's-- they're speaking that's sort
of going on but again I'm unaware
as to what they're saying.
And I have the responsibility now
to assume what my [inaudible].
There's a lot of guess work involved in this.
As I looked at the program, I found it interesting.
There was a lot of information that I was able
to read due to the text.
There were also lots of graphic images.
And because of those things,
I was able to assume what was on there.
A friend of mine who is hearing was able to tell me
that there was spoken information on there.
It didn't seem to include everything.
There were some important bullets though I believe in some
of the parts where they had some audio types of instruction.
It was more of a puzzle that I had to put the pieces together
to try to figure out what it was meaning.
I think that the most important thing that's done is
that when there's a voice on a video,
there needs to be captioning.
You know, that it doesn't mean to be this fancy art
or this extravagant graphics.
It's just that everything that's said,
they just need to caption it.
We need access to that.
I mean it's just that simple.
I don't have any mental problems, I'm not mentally slow,
I don't have any disabilities.
I can think, I can read, I can write, I can do anything
that anyone else can do except for hear.
And I want that person to respect me.
And I think that that would solve a lot of problems.
>> So that's-- that is Curtis, and again my apologies.
I have no idea where the captions
that we very keenly put on there went to.
More and more rich media is being put online.
This is becoming more and more of an issue.
Captioning is-- and I could have a--
talk to folks for an hour about captioning.
If anyone is interested in that, we can talk later.
We've got folks that have an array of motor skill problems
and there are adopted switches that are used
that essentially emulate keyboard and mouse functions.
But the real takeaway, I actually love to have--
pull up a complicated site like CNN.
And you know you'd essentially hit the tab key to move
from one link to the next and have folks count how many times
that might take me to get to like local weather.
So try that some time at home.
Can't use your mouse, all you can use is your tab key,
find your local weather.
But for some folks, hitting the tab key is pressing
on a switch like this.
Now, how many times might I have to do this
to get to my local weather?
You know after a while you just wonder how folks even persist
because we can make things so difficult for them.
And of course to the extent
that any developer ever does something that is dependent
on a mouse, like a mouse only kind of command,
then that content is not available to someone
that has complex motor problems.
I love this one, it's just an old--
we've got in our state Zions Bank, but I love this.
If you can use a mouse, you can get a house.
So I'm thinking in Utah, if you're a person
with a physical disability, you ain't getting no houses.
Uh-um, it's not gonna happen.
But-- and that was, you know, tongue and cheek
but the reality is that a lot
of our society's web infrastructure is
in fact mouse dependent and it is a huge problem.
Same thing, cognitive skills, there are articles,
there are some simulations.
But we've really gotta be thinking through some of this.
You know, what does it mean to create a site
that is gonna be welcoming, inviting, and helpful to people
with cognitive disabilities?
WebAIM has engaged in a lot of research and we've got a lot
of writing on developing web content
with an eye towards people with cognitive disabilities.
So I'd invite you to come to our site and mock
around on some of that stuff.
But we've-- we also have to think about this in the ways
in which our society is moving forward.
I think you guys will all, you know, agree that one
of the wonderful things about something
like Craigslist is it's all right there, you know.
It's all smashed on the front and you're one click from just
about whatever you want.
But look at the cognitive load issue, you know.
What does that do as you're trying to figure
out where you wanna go?
And to the extent that education sites are front-loading content,
this could be creating some additional problems
for an array of users.
And I-- I like to say that this picture is me in about 5 years.
You know, as we age, we start getting a combination
of problems.
And seizure disorders are real.
Photo epilepsy is a disorder that can be brought on by,
as you said, [inaudible] the flashing, blinking,
crazy animation stuff.
I'm sure you guys have all heard of, you know, the phenomenon
in Japan, you know, the release on new crazy thing and you know,
thousands of kids going to seizure states because,
you know, the big blinking and flashing,
it's-- I shouldn't laugh.
It's a horrible, horrible problem.
Okay. I want to just talk a little bit
about some other national pictures here.
In education, the-- the rate of problems
in accessibility is high.
Now, someone asked about standards.
I think you have.
Right now, we have two in this country, two prevailing sets
of technical standards.
And the statistics were created as folks went to one
of those standards, and I'll explain that in a minute.
But the two are, the web content accessibility guidelines
of the World Wide Web Consortium's Web
Accessibility Initiative.
So it's the W3C created workgroup, the WAI,
and they created the WCAG.
So that is a, you know, alphabet [inaudible].
I don't know what it is.
They are now WCAG, Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are
in version 2.
So WCAG 2.0, are the prevailing professional
international standards.
But it's important to know
that the W3C is not a regulatory body.
They are just a group of good folks that wanna, you know,
integrate and organize the web.
So nobody can go anywhere and say,
"You have to do the WCAG standards."
Now, likewise in the US,
the federal government has created Section 508 standards
for accessible electronic
and information communication technologies.
Where the web is concerned, there are 16 specific standards.
But that set of standards is only for the federal government.
So we got these 2 sets of standards.
One is not required because it's international.
One is required if you are a federal entity.
So what does a group like Dartmouth do?
>> There are some funding--
federal funding sources that if you accept the funds,
you make yourselves subject to 508.
>> The 508, I'm glad you brought that up.
508 was intended as a-- in part for procurement.
So the federal government is saying that we will not create,
procure, maintain, or deliver anything that is not accessible.
So if they pay me a gazillion dollars to create something
that they're gonna use, of course it makes sense
that they're gonna pass that regulation on to me.
But it's funny 'cause as we start talking about colleges
and universities, you know, what is the obligation?
Well, that-- there is an obligation
and that actually sits in section 504, the Americans
with Disabilities Act.
But where the standards are concerned,
it's not always clear what's the best way to go.
And folks are making lots of different decisions.
But right now, those are the two standards
that have been vetted the most and have the most kind of energy
around the two of them.
So I hope I answered that question for you.
Alright. I don't know if you noticed this but, you know,
we're talking about 10-year difference here.
This is actually data that started the WebAIM group.
This was a project that we-- and we followed this,
created in 26 colleges
and universities across all 50 states.
And we followed them longitudinally
and it never really got better.
Now, this was a different effort that, you know,
and the difference is this was a homepage
and this was one level down.
But still, you know, even if you were to raise the percentage
of pages that didn't have problems, I don't know,
5 percentage points, you're still--
this is a tremendous nightmare right now.
>> Coming down on some of the numbers,
I'm visiting from Australia.
And we had problems with that.
We have national university system
and very few private universities.
And so, because they're all funded
by the federal government, the federal government gets
to dictate the universities what they have to do,
otherwise they wouldn't get their funding.
So, there was a huge [inaudible] after the Sydney Olympics
because the Sydney Olympic for itself was very inaccessible.
>> And a lawsuit was brought.
[ Laughter ]
>> Yes. And so universities are getting very scared by that
in Australia at least.
And the moment we are being required
to change all the lecture material as an academic
from at least whatever it is at the moment to PDFaid
to make it accessible.
And that's a huge-- I don't wanna use the word "burden"
because that sounds the wrong thing.
But it's exactly what we have to do.
And if we don't do it, funding is dropped as opposed
to there is no additional funding to do it.
And it's interesting at that last point you said this is 2
pages down or something like that, or top page and 1 down.
That's exactly what we have been told and it's always,
you can imagine, a top page and 1 down, very simple pages.
And after that, they get very complex and detailed.
>> Get murky, yeah.
And probably quickly inaccessible.
>> I'm sure, yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, we actually-- we get to that a lot of levels
but I'm almost too embarrassed to even try out the data
on 3 and 5 levels down.
I mean it's diminishing return I guess, is what we can tell you.
You know, Australia has done amazing things
with accessibility.
I mean in as much as, I'm sure it is [simultaneous talking].
Yeah, it is.
It absolutely is.
That same pattern may repeat itself here in the states.
Just last night, the Department of Justice closed an advancement
and proposed rulemaking to explicitly include the internet
in the Americans with Disabilities Act.
And if they decide to promulgate some rules,
everyone from Barnes & Noble,
or Amazon to Dartmouth College will need to address issues
of inequity, potential discrimination, and web content.
So much better for all of you to make decisions now
to slowly transition to what you want it to be rather
than waiting to the last minute where someone says, "Now,
you gotta do this," in something that doesn't even make sense.
I mean the idea for me of creating PDFs of everything,
the PDFs which are usually not accessible to begin with.
I mean it just [simultaneous talking] sounds like nothing.
>> No, it's-- we cannot reproduce PDFs and everything
because that, for the majority of our students, it's visible
on the screen and printable and we got one to produce two
or three versions [inaudible] in synchronization.
But there is this version of PDF apparently, excuse my ignorance,
PDF/A which represents-- stands for accessibility,
and it's produced by Microsoft tools but it's not produced
by most open source or Macintosh-based tools.
>> Interesting.
>> And so, whenever governments and Microsoft get together,
all of us left wings get upset at that.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's all about tagging what's in the PDF
but I know that's going in a different direction
than we have intended here.
But I appreciate your-- your experience.
And you know, it's-- that's-- that is attention, you know.
How do we, in civil society, make things available
to everyone at what cost to the rest of the community?
And I know that parallel discussions we had
when the Americans with Disabilities Act was looking,
was enacting the physical regulations,
yet you will have ramps.
Yup, if you got stairs, you gotta have an alternate access
and elevator or something.
Yup, I'm sorry, the doorways actually have to be wide enough
for a wheelchair to get through.
People were in [inaudible] about that, you know.
It was gonna ruin western civilization
as we-- as we knew it then.
And you know, in this country, it was a very contentious time
and I think we're now on the other side of it enough
to realize that that was an important social investment
that has had great benefits.
But the digital stuff is tough and we keep moving forward.
>> You comment on the gentleman in the front row.
As an example, I have to produce more accessible teaching
materials that I know.
We asked all the students
to naturally announce not necessarily to the professor
but announce their disabilities.
I mean, no, that we don't have any challenged students
in the class and we don't have
to produce materials [inaudible] in effect.
>> Right.
[ Inaudible Remark ]
>> PDF is a largely PDF development
and complication was widely driven by DRM concerns.
DRM is the technological opposite of open.
Open is the technological cognate of accessible
because open formats are mostly designed to be built
on by everyone, that is to say they--
they present the simplest forcible view of inclination,
this ambiguous view of information.
Such was the intention of W3C for example in all
of their standards recommendations,
not on the accessibility recommendations.
PDF on the other hand, was intended as--
one of its selling point was that, well,
publishers that will be DRM in-- in the format.
It will not be so easy to access in ways you don't approve of.
>> All those wonderful proprietary technologies
that we have to live with, so I have to say I am an open gal,
but lost that battle a long time ago.
Alright. Let's see.
On this campus, when content isn't accessible, what happens?
So, I am the first student of Dartmouth that comes
and I am blind and I'm using a screen reader
so I can't get this stuff.
What is gonna be?
What is gonna happen?
>> Well, from a student perspective, you'll have to go
to student's office and then we have to [inaudible]
with professor and try to get the work around.
So, rather than like creating a content to be accessible,
you have the content and then you figure out
and make it accessible afterwards.
>> Bingo.
>> Well, for it to [inaudible], first you're gonna have
to self identify [inaudible] to a process.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
>> You're gonna have to--
>> Correct.
>> Make sure you have a faculty member who [inaudible].
>> But eventually, we get to the fact that it's going
to be an accommodation, which incept
by being a fancy word for a post hoc fix.
And you know, if ever there was an opportunity
to get something right,
technology provides us that opportunity.
And doing after the fact fix, pretty much ensures
that that student or faculty member
or staff won't be getting it in real time, which is kind
of the point of the web, isn't it?
I go from this link to this link.
Oh, I'm interested in this and, oh shoot!
Now I can't get it, now I have to ask somebody
to somehow transform that in a way that I can make sense of it.
We've got a lot of problems of the accommodation model
which is the pervasive model across all social sectors
for content that is not accessible.
It's reactive, it-- it's just self perpetuated
because to the extent that--
that we continue to allow accommodations,
then folks assume that that's the way it should be taken care
of and we never really get to the place
where we're saying how can this be made natively accessible.
Now I don't know, you know in your country how much--
we'll always have accommodations,
don't get me wrong because when we're talking
about accessibility, we always have to ask ourselves accessible
for whom and in what context.
And trust me, if I'm making content accessible
for blind individual at my university, that's different
than making it accessible for the reincarnation
of Helen Keller in Ghana.
See what I 'm saying?
There is-- when we're talking about accessibility,
we always gotta put it in context.
And yet we've got to be thinking about how it is
that creating natively accessible content can also
coexist with minor bits of accommodations.
Most folks in education have this mindset that they'll go
to the DSO, Disability Service Office or into a department
of special ed and that those people take care of it,
so there's never any personal ownership that as an instructor,
as a faculty member, as a staff member, I'm a staff assistant
and every quarter, I post a schedule
for my department on their website.
Where am I owning that when I create that word document,
I need to have proper headings and use styles and not hit tab,
bold and underline, because that's my responsibility.
And if I'm not thinking that way,
then I'm thinking somebody else does that,
that's somebody else's job
and it perpetuates the problem of accommodation.
We've got to get beyond that, we've got to get to a place
where we all see it as part of our own work and we all see it
as something that can be accomplished natively.
I'm gonna zip pass this really quickly,
some of the legal stuff.
We just say that there--
there is a lot of law and I'm just gonna mention Section 504
was the first piece of civil rights legislation for people
with disabilities in the US.
Section 508 defines what-- what accessibility is in the context
of federal government.
There is the application of the Americans
with Disabilities Act which--
although there have been a number of court cases on this,
because it was signed in the law in 1990, or as I like to say,
before Al Gore invented the internet.
The word internet didn't appear in ADA legislation.
And ADA in titles 2 and 3 talk about covered entity
as being one of these 12 places of public accommodation
and the public accommodation is like a place of education,
a place of commerce, a place of employment and people
over the years have argued in courts
that the internet is not in place.
>> So how can the law, the ADA,
apply to something that is not in place?
But of course, I like to say, if it is not a place,
then why is it that I am there and how did I get there?
Anyway, they're-- they're trying to get this all figured out
and there have been many successful lawsuits
against inaccessible web content under ADA regulation.
Twenty six separate states have state laws.
New Hampshire is not one of them.
But there's also the United Nations Convention on the Rights
of Persons with Disabilities as an international law
and they have section 9 which is its own section in that treaty
that deals with accessibility, both of the built environment
and of information communication technologies.
And then of course there are country-specific laws, the--
the EU has a 2010 initiative that is actually being rolled
up in 2011 but, you know, that's the EU.
What can you say?
There are lots and lots
of reasons why folks would wanna be thinking
about the legal issue.
I'm just gonna mention their key concerns are the timeliness
rational that there is no way for an accommodation
to be timely if I'm having to wait 3 days, 5 days for content
to come back to me in a way that I can perceive it
or an effective communication issue 'cause the law says
that the-- an accommodation must be as effective
as the regular communication.
But if you look at web content, you know, it's also interlinked.
How is it possible for it ever to be
as effective as-- it's tough?
Reasonableness of accommodation, again,
if you're having the people read content for people.
Also the nature of the 24/7 context of the web, you know,
365 days a year, I can go to, you know,
this and so in such site.
If I have someone who's gonna help or assist me
and they're only available between 9 and 5,
Monday to Friday that we don't have anything that's
in any way could-- and the fact that institutions,
all sectors have affirmative obligation to be thinking
about this for this problem.
I'm not gonna read this but you can if you want to just to know
that there is in fact-- we do have an obligation under the law
to be thinking ahead of problems and not just always responding
in the post halfway to request for-- for help.
And then the last one is a lot of times folks will talk
about accessibility being a burden.
They aren't aware that the law looks
at not your individual efforts as being maybe over the top
but they look at that in the context of your--
your business enterprise.
So in my state, Utah State University,
if we were to claim an undue burden, it would have
to be an undue burden against the entire system
of higher education in the State of Utah,
because that's our business context.
So it's better to make the wise decisions first.
Okay. Just a couple of last things--
oh, I've gotta just zip by here.
There have been some letters that have gone
out from the White House to college
and university presidents recently talking
about the problems
with universities requiring certain technologies
that are inherently accessible.
That was the Kindle DX controversy and Amazon
and Arizona State University lost
on that particular court case.
I've already mentioned the announced notes,
the proposal we're making and that I don't know
if I mentioned this or not, but President Obama signed on to--
or signed the US intent
to ratify the United Nation's Convention on Rights
of Persons with Disabilities.
So there's just a lot of inertia here that may be very helpful
to campuses that would choose to, you know,
move in these directions.
It is about 22, so we're a little bit beyond.
I was very interested in talking about some
of our other initiatives.
But-- but I think we've ran out of time and I wanna make sure
that I get back to questions.
I know I answered the one about standards.
I tried to talk a little bit about you know, the efforts.
And of course, part of what you're describing, doing--
you're working in CSS, some of that isn't required
by access-- for accessibility.
Although, I will say, it's-- it's wonderful.
I think it's the best way to go.
But it is hard if you are--
a lot of folks that are doing accessibility work see the
accessibility piece is not that much greater
than what they would have normally done.
I would suspect that even if you weren't thinking about this,
you would probably be coding your CSS anyway
because that's kind
of the correctional standard these days.
And I could be wrong.
And I don't know that I got to your question.
>> Well, a little bit the scope and size of the problem.
>> Yeah, it's big.
>> Yeah.
>> It's enormous.
>> And kind of the-- some recent examples,
I think help demonstrate that, you know, one step forward,
two steps back, it seems like--
>> Yeah-- yeah.
Well, the problem is national scope.
When WebAIM talks to institutions,
we're always talking about-- we're--
we're encouraging people to think about their own policy
and implementation development as occurring over years.
Not like people panic, oh my lord,
it has to be accessible tomorrow, but you know,
what would be the impacted by next--
the beginning of next academic year.
You guys actually had executive committee
and faculty senate signing on to the idea of the policy.
What would happen
if the following fiscal year some resources were brought
to bear?
Some people could get the training that they needed
and that-- that there were some systems of support in place
for folks that wanted to learn
to do it better before it becomes compulsory
by the government.
Anyway, let's see.
>> So, we've done a lot like sort of the problems stated
which was very helpful.
And I'm-- I'm really curious about the solution,
ideas in this room, the next action.
So for example, one thing I noticed that for a lot of parts
of Dartmouth's web services, professors
and like student interns are throwing these websites together
so it's not-- there are lots of different CMS's
that are being used and then there's a lot
of just static HTML that people are writing by hand, or with--
with [inaudible] editors, whatever, but--
so I'm wondering if for example, one recommendation
that I might imagine would be that schools work on having sort
of one central CMS that they really try
to put all their content into and that way,
when a professor wants a website for something,
the professor provides the content and--
and can edit the content ideally here through webinar-based.
But-- but then there is a small group of professionals
that are controlling the market like it's [inaudible]
and making sure that that's accessible.
Of course there are tradeoffs there and--
and one thing that that means is that, you know,
you're centralizing this-- this work of creating the webpages
and that has sort of goes on [inaudible] in terms
of like the beauty of the decentralized web.
So I'm wondering like is that a recommendation and sort
of what are the recommendations for university [inaudible].
>> You know, I certainly would never rec--
well, let me say this.
I think it is easier for any kind of regulation
for things to be centralized.
I would necessarily recommend centralization as a way
to get it at explicitly at that part.
I think the pushback-- the potential pushback that you get
from a unit saying, oh, ah-ah, here, given me the choice
between needs for templates, I choose none of them.
You know, I don't like the structure.
It didn't work for me.
I don't like the visual representation, back off.
And if somehow that effort
of creating a better web environment or kind
of policy stuff, all ends up on the backs of accessibility,
I think we're actually doing people
with disability the disservice because somehow during their--
the reason that all of this is happening.
That said, it is of course easier to do it that way,
but that's not the only way to do it.
I mean there are lots and lots of models out there
of how campuses that are very decentralized have done things
and done them by creating, you know, communities practice of--
of professional web developers.
I mean, one of the things we got to really deal with here
in [inaudible] is that departments
with no resources get the department head's nephew's,
you know, neighbor to do a website
or at least that's happened in other places.
I won't say that that's happening here.
But at what point are we gonna say the people that design
for Dartmouth College have a minimum, you know,
these kinds of skills and they are part of our web community
that meets monthly to talk about issues, that shares pains
and successes and really start getting a lot of things going.
>> We've got a sister institution in our state
that have-- they have web accessibility initiative
and one person that since everybody on their kind of web--
all the webmasters one time a month get a page of--
somebody else's page and what they need to do is go
through that institution's web policy,
is the institutional wordmark there.
Are they using browser safe colors?
Do they conform to our accessibility policy?
Do they do this?
Do they-- is it secure?
You know, or is, you know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
and they do that and then that feedback goes back to folks.
So people are [inaudible] they're learning
from one another.
Hopefully, feedback isn't seen as punitive and critical
but everyone is moving the ball down the--
down the field a little bit.
That's just one example but there really are lots and lots
of examples of ways in a decentralized context to get,
you know, get stuff going and moving.
>> [Inaudible] it's interesting, I mean I don't--
as I understand and I don't know if there's anyone
from computing services or like related offices here but I--
I don't know that there is--
I know that there are organizations like [inaudible]
that sort of hand out the server space but I don't know
if there is sort of a centralized body
that you would go to to say how--
how is it that I go about making the website or, you know,
can you [inaudible] my website[inaudible]?
>> Right, right.
>> Does anybody wanna [inaudible]?
>> Sarah, do you wanna [inaudible]--
>> Yeah.
[ Simultaneous Talking ]
>> Is there a central place that people can go if they want
to make their content accessible?
>> Well, but there is a--
the organization that you're talking about,
there is an organization that's responsible for, one CMX
and supports probably about 80 percent of the administrative
and academic department websites on the campus.
[ Simultaneous Talking ]
>> Web services?
Web services?
And it's in the computing organization, so.
>> Let me ask this question.
Is the cri-- should the criterion be that the,
what you call a piece of context-- or contents.
Is-- can be read by a particular tool or can be presented
by a particular tool or that such a tool could be written?
The difference would be I write most
of my class notes in plain text.
So, the URLs are there.
They can be too many parts by any tool
that [inaudible] the URL format.
Yet it is not marked up as a URL because I'm not writing
in HTML, I'm writing in text.
But this is an open format
and one can easily write to but-- so--
>> Well, what I can say is at least to stay [inaudible] W3C,
the Web Accessibility Initiative.
They have four basic principles that all content needs
to be perceivable,
understandable, operable, and robust.
And of course they have criteria for each of those.
But to the extent, you know, you said does it need to be readable
or does it, you know, to the extent
that all content can be perceived.
So you always wanna be multimodal.
If I didn't have vision, could I get it in some auditory context?
If I don't have hearing, can I get it
in some kind of a visual content?
If I don't have use of my limbs, can I still operate it?
You know, as long as you're hitting those things,
then you probably are.
>> So, [inaudible] the question is, is there--
is there a program that can be used to pursue this page
or should it be [inaudible]?
Can such a program be written
and then you let whoever is interested
in providing that software, right?
>> No, you're thinking of like a validation software,
not unlikely [inaudible]?
>> No, no, no.
I am [inaudible].
I'm thinking of, I'm thinking
of basically [inaudible] mandating open formats propel us
far enough along this road or, you know--
>> Well, there are just as many problems in open formats
as in proprietary ones.
I mean the-- the issue is maybe
that people are not using the tools that they have.
>> Actually, is that-- is that a fact
that they're own [inaudible]--
that the problems are comparable?
>> Well, here would be an example.
I can go into Google Docs right now and create a document.
And rather than using the styles,
rather than using headings, so I can tab and hold it anyway,
just as easily as I can tab and hold it in the [inaudible]
and that's an example of the same type of error,
the lack of structure semantic prediction in an open
and a proprietary format.
That's not even, you know, I'm not even writing in HTML.
I can talk about the presentation formats as well
and talk about how I can make errors in PowerPoint
and I can make-- I can make errors in some
of the open presentation formats just as easily.
So part of it really is that the level of what it is
as a user my understanding is of what needs to be happening
so that people can perceive this document has structure.
There really is a hierarchy of headings and content
or of a bulleted list and that I didn't just put a little
asterisk-- you know tab asterisk
and content tab asterisk [inaudible].
That really is a list.
So it goes a little bit beyond that.
>> Traditionally open formats had been meant
to express more semantics.
Unfortunately as they were forced
to emulate more proprietary offerings, they-- they did.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> So-- but I see your point.
>> And I think that this issue and I think we're gonna wrap
up here too, but I-- and this is something I learned
from Sarah Horton actually when I got here and began teaching
about teaching people with different disabilities
or different ways of learning
and that oftentimes doing something a little bit
differently as the teacher is better
for not just those particular students
but for everyone in the group.
All students, you know, and this is all kinds of things,
that the exam isn't meant to be timed.
If you're not trying to teach-- you know, I don't need to know
if you know it quickly, I just need to know if you know it,
then take time out of the-- taking that out of the exam.
And it sounds like you're kind of talking about the same things
but I feel like I don't--
I don't know those things to the extent
that I might be producing content.
I mean I think it's important that the developers
and people we're teaching to write web content,
to develop tools really need to have that, but the rest
of us need some of those skills too
to make sure we're not inadvertently producing content
that isn't accessible when it's--
it's just coz' it's easier and that's how I know how
to do it or something.
>> Are you pointing folks, Sarah,
to any internal here is what you do list
that I can bring up for folks?
>> No, because it's-- as I-- as I mentioned earlier,
we're very much embarked on a process of moving this forward
but we're sort of at the brink of moving it forward,
the college and having more resources available.
So I hope that within the next month or so,
we'll have more to offer.
>> I will say that I don't know a webbing site
over in the article section.
I think our introduction is very strong
and we do provide albeit a little more technical device
on constructing things that have perceivable [inaudible]
understand a little bit robust content.
It's avail-- I think it's available
for non-technical people.
But farther down, if you start looking at the array
of tutorials and all this is just available out there,
you know, you can see things
that people use PowerPoint, Word, OpenOffice.
You know, lots and lots of different things.
And along with that I'll also just put in a quick plug.
We've got a web accessibility evaluation tool
and then we're going to-- it's available [inaudible] use,
so that they can look at the level of accessibility
that their web contact has.
And hopefully those are some places to start.
The last thing I'm gonna mention,
and then I know we will wrap up, is that-- Sarah, do you think--
have you guys answered the question internally
as to whether you would be more likely to go 508 or [inaudible]?
>> No we haven't answered that.
>> Okay. Alrighty.
Section 508, the federal set of standards,
we've got a little checklist for each of them so you can kind
of get a sense-- now the pass and fail, that's not--
those were not federally determined.
That was our-- that's our language
but you can see a text equivalent
for non-text elements, equivalent alternatives
for multimedia presentations, webpages,
you know, can't rely on color.
So in a way, even just understanding what some
of these standards or document shall be organized
so that they're readable.
Now, I think some of that is helpful to folks
as they're trying to know what to do.
So I would hope that folks find some of the, you know,
webbing materials that's useful until such time
as your group have some-- a place for folks to land here.
>> Okay.
>> Well, thank you guys.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Now, you all stayed so much longer than you should have
and that will teach you to invite me [inaudible].
[ Applause ]
==== Transcribed by Automatic Sync Technologies ====