Do you want to start talking about anything you find … right off the top of your head
to be interesting, Fells Point history… Tell him, PJ, what you were thinking.
Okay what I’m going to do is … I’m going to start with my … how I became acquainted
with Fells Point, how I came here and what happened then.
If I go back in my years, I was a child in a Boy Scout troop, Cub Scout, and the old
Bay Bell that used to go down to Betterton was docked right down here on the pier. So
my first view of Fells Point was as a 11 yr old, 10 yr old who … would come down here
with either the family or the scout troop and take the excursion down to Betterton.
And at that point, nobody really called Fells Point Fells Point. It was the “foot of Broadway.”
So the next I really got acquainted with Fells Point was when I was first married.
What year were you first here? Man, that would been back in ‘50, 1950,
1948 in that relm. Right after the war?
Yeah. And, uh the next acquaintance I had with Fells Point was still the foot of Broadway
in my mind was when I first was married. They had a barge down here right along side the
pier right at the foot of Broadway here. Furniture barge. It was Scandinavian furniture. So my
wife and I came down here and bought a living room set off the barge, and bought some other
things. And that was the first time because we came back and served a church in East Baltimore
and came back and somebody said, “Well that’s Fells Point” and I said “That isn’t
Fells Point, Fells Point is some place else. What d’ya mean that Fells Point?” They
finally convinced me that was called Fells Point and so that was my next adventure with
Fells Point. At the same time, we came down here when night we came down to the Acropolis.
It was owned by Nick’s family of Jimmy’s. They had belly dancers - very popular place
in the city. Everybody knew the Acropolis and the belly dancers. We came down with friends,
acquaintance with Fells Point. And then I served a church in Northwest Baltimore
and West Baltimore, and I was there for about 7 years, 6 years and my wife left me. So one
of the councilmen said, “I know just the thing for you.” This guy was … something
else. He said, “I’m going to pick you up on Thursday night and I’m gonna take
you to some place.” And I said okay. I was in for anything at that time. And so he brought
me down to Fells Point and to Ledbetter’s. And every Thursday night, Ledbetter’s was
just packed. It seemed like they had sectioned … bars in different sections in the city
but had a different night that people would go to. And they would travel to these … Ledbetter’s
was Thursday night. And you could not … you could hardly get into the place. If you could
ease your way in the front door and finally make it half way back, Ledbetter’s you were
lucky. So JC, that was this councilman’s name, the church council, he introduced me
to Fells Point. And it was at this time… What year?
Oh … in probably in fall of ‘73. I was just starting my first year of college.
Don’t make him feel too bad. I was turning 18.
[groans] I was 30’s or something, mid ‘30’s. So anyway JC and I stared to hook up and come
down here every week. And it was at this time I met a man by the name of Ralph Miller which
I later found out was not his real name. It was his alias. But Ralph was one of the true
characters of Fells Point. Probably one of the most intelligent men I’ve ever known…
raw intelligence. He was the kind of guy that got along with everybody. I mean, and he would
get by with stuff. If there were a couple walking down the street, he’d go up, not
knowing this couple, he’d go up and hug and kiss the woman, the couple and turn to
the guy and say “by gosh you have good taste” and get by with it! Just get by with it! This
was the kind of guy he was. [01:06:20;24]
So, it turned out that at the church, I really needed to get away after my wife left me and
so I started to pursue a hobby. I made earrings out at the parsonage. I made about 700 pair
of earrings. I decided, “Well, it’s time to leave here” (the church). I came down
Fells Point and started looking around for buildings to buy. Fells Point at that time
was sort of a risk because the highway was still coming through. And that hadn’t been
decided upon yet. But it was still coming through. And the path of the highway, Lancaster
and Shakespeare … all these houses were condemned and vacant, except for a few that
the city had rented to people. So I ended up buying the place on Lancaster Street. It
had two apartments in it. The one apartment had…
May I ask what the price was at that time? Price?? I paid a lot of money for that building
at that time. I paid $15,500 for the building. That was considered a good bit of money for
that time. But it was not in the lane of the highway. It would have been right on the edge
of the highway coming through. So that was not a condemned property. So, I had 2 tenants
in there when I moved in and one of them was Debbie Zwieback. She stayed with me for … up
until 4 years ago, a year before I had the fire in the building. She stayed in there.
And I had another guy in there, and he moved out real fast.
Ralph, then who had a place out on Moravia Blvd., and the city was trying to condemn
that property, so he moved into that apartment. So Ralph and I became real good friends and
I found out a lot about this man and how intelligent he was. He got through junior high school
and that was about it. But he had read all the Greek classics. He had read all the major
literature, literary works of Shakespeare and some Chaucer, an extremely intelligent
man. He was a man… he was a carpenter by trade and he could take a piece of framing
for a door and, without taking a measure to it, he would eye it up, cut the angle by sight,
flip that sucker up there and it would fit … without any tape, without anything else.
The guy was amazing. He worked on also, one of the first to work on the Constellation
when they came here. He was on that crew. But anyway, Ralph was one of the big characters.
He was … I had seen him drunk 3 times in one day. It was at a one of the Fells Point
festivals. He had a wine skin, and he would take that out do his thing with his wine skin.
He came in about 12:00 that day, came through the shop, drunk, smashed, crawled up the steps
into his apartment. An hour later he come down – stone sober! I mean, stone sober!
And next thing I know, about 4 hours later, about 4:00, 5:00, came back smashed again.
Crawled upstairs. Literally crawled now, up the stairs. He would crawl up the stairs so
he wouldn’t fall. Came back in a hour, hour and a half, came out again stone sober. 12:00
that night, he came back again drunk … again, crawled up the steps, went to bed. Three times
in one day - drunk. Fantastic guy and… Did he do that often?
Oh yeah, yeah. He got his name … the Ralph I’m not sure about, but the Miller because
he always drunk Miller beer. That’s the only thing he would drink was Miller beer.
And so he became Ralph Miller. His real name was Ed Lawrence…. And uh, so just followed
Ralph through here … because he was a major character, one of the first major characters
of Fells Point. [01:11:54;11]
It was he and Kenny Orey, who owned the Cat’s Eye, and Kenny was a part of the Irish IRA
and he was a gun runner for them and he used to be gone for months at a time and he claimed
he was gun running from Europe into Ireland and etc. So he had this real strong connection
with that. So Ralph had come up with a … found some place, Lord knows where he found it,
an old coffin. It was a coffin that must’ve dated to … it looked very European. It must’ve
dated to the turn of the century. It was the squared corners and all?
Yeah, yeah. It was black with goldish trim. It looked very European. So Kenny and Ralph
came up with an idea. And this idea became one of the biggest hoax ever played on this
City. They came up with the idea that there was a Irish IRA leader in Ireland who died.
And in his will he wished, because of his connections with Kenny, he wished to be buried
out of the Cat’s Eye Pub in Baltimore in Fells Point. So they wrote up an obituary,
sent it to the Sun papers. And the obituary stated when the coffin would be coming in,
there’d be a procession for him and he would be laid out in the Cat’s Eye Pub for a wake.
Sun papers bought it, and evidently didn’t investigate at all, bought the whole scheme,
placed it in the obituary section of the Sun paper. And lo and behold the Liquor Board
got a hold of it, called Kenny Orey on the phone and said, “You cannot have a dead
body in a liquor establishment. You cannot do it. We’ll close you down.” Kenny, “Well,
you’re gonna have to close me down, because we’re gonna do it.” And the Liquor Board
said, “Well, we’ll have somebody there to close you down”. Kenny said, “Fine.”
So on the appointed day that the casket … the body was supposed to arrive here, here was
news people out there, TV, etc. out on Thames Street waiting for this coffin to come, this
procession. It was a pastor, I don’t know, a priest there, I don’t know where he was
from. But they had a, of course, they had a bagpipe band, all laid out. So, Ralph had
placed the coffin at the end of the Broadway Pier and he had an old, I guess it was maybe
14 foot aluminum row boat. Aluminum row boats were somewhat popular, but they were very
light and they shifted all over the place. So, he had somebody rowing that boat. He had
the casket cross the row boat. And here was Ralph sitting on top of the casket, the guy
rowing coming around here, coming into the pier right down in here. And it almost capsized
the boat. Ralph was drinking his Miller beer, and everybody at that time then, knew this
thing was all a hoax. But they proceeded with the procession down to Cat’s Eye Pub, put
the casket in the back room, had candles all over… And even though some people, most
people knew it was a hoax at that time, many didn’t. There were a lot of young women
would not go back in that room with that dead body. So they opened the casket and they had
a dummy in the casket but there were a lot of ‘em that didn’t go back there. But
the biggest hoax played on the City because everybody bought it. And they were all here,
found out that it wasn’t true. The Liquor Board actually show up?
Um-hm. Yeah, yeah, they were all here. Everybody was here.
How many people like, just a mob? They had a good crowd, you know, I mean I
wouldn’t say it would be hundreds, but it was a good crowd. But a… yeah, so that was
And Kenny, now Kenny Orey was another real character in this whole thing the Cat’s
Eye. He liked to fight. Loved to fight so He was Irish.
Yeah. Loved to fight. So, you know, at 2:00, he wouldn’t close the bar really. He would
start a fight. And they would be fighting in there and the police would come and they’d
say… the police would come up to the door and the police would say, “Oh, that’s
Kenny” and leave! They’d be brawling in there. And they would go until they tired
out. [Laugh.] But this was part of Kenny. So Ralph died. Um… I guess it was around
in ‘83. Ralph was a chain smoker, I mean, he just constantly chain smoking and he died
of lung cancer. And so that was the first time that I had a … eulogy for the characters
of Fells Point was Ralph. We had eulogy for him out in the square. And from then on, I
became the person who did eulogies for the characters of Fells Point.
You’re already a pastor, so… Yeah, so the story with Kenny was… I don’t
know which I had done, I don’t know the order now anymore now, but I know Ralph was
the first one and … who was the second? I’m not sure, but I did eulogies for Ralph
… Harry Reynolds, who … that’s another story. And Jimmy. But it was one of these
I did, I think it could’ve been Jimmy, I’m not sure, but it was one of … afterwards,
we met right here in the Whistling Oyster and Kenny was sitting right by that window
up there the end of the bar. I was sitting along side him and … this was right after
the eulogy and Kenny turned to me and said, well, he says “I hope you realize that I’m
gonna be the next one you give a eulogy for.” Now Kenny was still young. He was in his 30’s.
So I said, Kenny, “Get outta here, will ya? I don’t wanna listen to this stuff.”
Son of a gun, Kenny was the next I did a eulogy for. And he died of an overdose. Cocaine.
I think it was cocaine. I’m not sure. I’ve seen so many the pictures talked to
a lot of people. He was a hard livin’… I mean, top of the list.
Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing he even made it that far. It
was just amazing the stuff he did. Yeah. The guy
I think it was Steve Bunker who said round the clock he was going at it.
Yeah. He was. He was a hard liver. Ralph was a hard liver… And then you had people life
Jeff Napp who… that was probably the most unique of the eulogies that I was ever … wakes
I was ever involved in. Probably, out of them all, he was probably the most well known.
Jeff Napp … across the City. He looked like Abraham Lincoln. He wasn’t as tall, but
he looked like Abraham Lincoln and he would dress up as Abraham Lincoln. And he was a
bartender that tended bar, I think, first up in the Fish or up the Classroom, or one
of em. And then came down here to Anybody’s and
then he tended bar here for a while and probably most well known for the Cat’s Eye. But at
his death… they, somebody had paid for and brought up a New Orleans jazz band. One that
did these funerals in New Orleans. The guys with the umbrellas and all this… so he was
laid, Jeff was laid out up at Billing Zeiler. So they had a procession from up there, had
a service up there for him, a procession that came down Ann Street with this band and they
came to the Pier and we had the ceremony out on the … the eulogy out on the Pier and
that was probably one of the most unique of all of the eulogies that I did.
How far of a walk was that from, was it a mile or?
No, about a quarter of a mile … Eastern Avenue and Ann Street. Yeah. But anyway, I
don’t know what it is to be known as the giver of eulogies or not, I don’t know what
that has to say about myself…. Well, you’re more than that … you still
give services out on the pier. I mean, we go to those.
Yeah. That’s been a part You did Ed Kane’s eulogy. He’s one of
the most famous guys here. Um-hum. I did Ed Kane… The most recently
was Ed Kane and Charlie Newton. I forgot about Charlie Newton.
[01:23:35;27] Yeah. They were the most recent ones that
I’ve done. But, um, but back then, when I first came down here, Fells Point was, I
guess you could call it … the best thing that you could call it was a mini Greenwich
Village. It was at that time, the hippie era. It was sort of towards the end of the hippie
era. Were you a hippie?
That was ‘74. Were you kind of a hippie?
Yeah. You know. You more like a seafarer but…
No, I was … I’ve always been sort of left of center.
I was gonna say left of center. Yeah, but the life down here was so different.
Everybody knew each other, and if somebody needed something everybody’d pitch in without
being asked to do so. It was that community feeling that communal feeling down here. I
can remember… Do you think that’s slipping away?
Yeah, oh yeah. It’s changed, it’s changed in nature. It’s become a little more sophisticated.
It’s still here to a degree. There’s a few of us… me and my wife, my
neighbor Andy and my friend Bill. There’s a bunch of people. We still try to keep that
alive. Like helping and going to things, you know, try and help sponsor something, the
band I’m playing with…. It needs to be a lot of involvement. That’s one of the
reasons I moved here, it seemed like this… No, it definitely has carried it through.
Sense of community here like nothing else… Yeah. It’s more community here than probably
any place I’ve lived. Except in the black community. The black community, this is the
closest I think I experienced between the black community here … because my church
out in West Baltimore was a black church and the communal feeling there was very strong.
And they had to be throughout history. Black people had to be together and share and support
each other. I can remember, this is sort of getting off the subject, but to point it out,
I got called out there at 3:00 in the morning that one of my parishioners died. I went to
the house. I dressed and went to the house and got about 3:30, 4:00 in the morning. And
lo and behold, I walked up on the steps and the house was filled with people and they
had already brought food! And that’s the kind of thing that you had. And that is the
kind of feeling and spirit that you had in Fells Point.
[01:26:38;10] My biggest concern in Fells Point, out of
all the experiences I’ve had here, is that as the economic level gets higher and higher,
a lot of times, these people and their higher economic strata will tend to stay to themselves
or to communicate or keep a communication with outside areas of same wealth. And I’m
scared of that here in Fells Point happening with the higher property … new properties
with high property values, etc. I’m hoping that that doesn’t happen, but I see it happening
in some instances here. That’s my real fear for the future of Fells Point.
But back then, I was saying, there was communal feel like at Harry’s. Harry had the bar
down here on Register and Lancaster Street, the place that just says “Bar”. And that
place was much shambles like… but Harry was a big guy, almost as big as you. He was
a big guy, probably bigger…. This is gonna be about the candle.
Huh? Is this gonna be about the candle?
Partially. Partially. See, you think I don’t pay attention.
Yeah. Now, Harry … a big ol’ guy…. And he was very sensitive. He was a railroad man.
Loved the railroad. And he had connections with people all over the City. And one of
‘em was Gordy. Gordy and, I can’t think of his last name, but he was a TV camera man
for WJZ. And Gordy, every weekend or Friday night, would come down with a bagful of cheese
and mustards and crackers and be a cheese party at Harry’s. Everybody. Harry only
served beer and wine at that time. That was all it was. But it would be jammed. The place
would be jammed-packed and nothing to draw except for the fact that this was the place
that Harry drew people. And so it became a sort of a local hangout as well as Helen’s
on the corner down here on Thames and Broadway. What’s Helen’s now?
Helen’s bar? Where Admiral Fell is?
No not the Admiral Fell Inn. The Admiral’s Cup. The bar on the corner. She lived above
it. She made her money off the tugboat people. But it was a hangout for locals. A lot of
the theater people went there or they came over here to the Whistling Oyster later. But
you had two theaters down here, the Vagabond Theater and Fells Point Corner Theater. So,
the Corner Theater was before the Vagabonds down here.
But, anyway, Harry … every Christmas I would go down and decorate his bar and then carry
the organ down the Sunday night before Christmas, and we would sing Christmas Carols all night.
And Harry would get so emotional that tears would come to his face, and he didn’t want
anybody see him crying, so he would leave and go over Helen’s and then he would come
back… But that’s where in the Christmas services I have, Christmas Eve I have the
old candle, big candle, the Fells Point candle, and that’s where it originated. That’s
where I started the Fells Point Candle, was in Harry’s Bar. So that has…
So that’s still the real candle? That’s still the real candle. Yeah, the
original candle. That candle has… If that candle could talk…
Yeah, yeah. It survived that fire and It’s strange too the things that your bell
survived the fire… Oh, and that’s another story!
Wait a minute. Let’s go on to that next. I’m gonna have to take a break.
[cut for break; 01:31:47;29] We are recording again.
Okay. The communal feeling in Fells Point back in that time was something to behold.
I’ll never forget it. I remember this place that we’re in right now, the Whistling Oyster,
this back room … the building was in bad shape when Reed and Robin bought it, and so
they had to do a lot of work in it. But they were slow in doing it so Ralph would come
over and just donate his time and help out. But it came around Thanksgiving time, it was
Thanksgiving week, and I don’t know whether it was Thanksgiving Eve or Thanksgiving Day
or when it was… But this back room was torn up. The only piece of flooring was right in
this back area here. As you came into the room, the floor was torn up. but we got ahold
of a turkey. And Ralph, Ralph liked to cook over open fires. So he cooked a turkey in
this fireplace and it was, oh maybe about 10 or 12 of us came for Thanksgiving dinner
here. I’ll never forget that. Everybody came together. It was almost like a spontaneous
thing. And we … it was a family. A family in Fells Point. And Fells Point really became
a family to us. So that, that was really one of those unique Thanksgivings that I’ll
never forget. In the middle of desolation almost back here. It was a fantastic experience.
But I had the shop over there and I sold earrings that I made. And I sold, started to make candles,
and made mobiles. And so the first shop over there, PJ’s Place, that’s what it was.
I would sit there and make stuff and people would come in and sometimes they would buy.
Not that many bought, but it was a interesting experience in the shop.
But the … at that time, everything wasn’t so hunky dory though. We got into, the City
decided they needed … after the expressway was defeated, the City that they needed a
master plan for Fells Point. So, a planning council was set up here in Fells Point of
residents and business owners. And the people … they established block groups meetings.
And each of the blocks, what was designated historic Fells Point. And it was probably
the most meetings that the community had ever had. They would have these block meetings
and the input would go into the Planning Council. And then they would have these town meetings
at the old Mission Society over here. And these town meetings were some of the most
… I don’t know. I never have really experienced such dissention and discord as those meetings.
I mean, people would get up and almost every … it was almost fist ‘a cuffs at every
meeting. I mean shouting at each other, spitting at each other. It was … and they’d be
packed. These meetings would be packed. I can remember one of the big meetings we had
was over at St. Stan’s. It was one of the community people got so angry that it was
… our American Legion post had a girls twirling group and they had won all these trophies.
And so they brought these trophies over and set ‘em on the table to show the community.
They were proud of this. So this guy got so angry he came up, upset the table, broke the
trophies and had to call the police to get him calmed down, to get him out of there.
But it was that kind of thing. And it was … the tension was between trying to make
this an upscale neighborhood over and against the elderly people who were still here. And
I can remember … and it was also the fact trying to preserve the history of Fells Point,
the buildings and whatever. [01:38:14;17]
I don’t know whether the DeShield sisters have come up or not, but I … the DeShield
sisters were very much a part of this whole thing in this planning council era. The DeShield
sisters had bought up a lot of properties and their vision was to make a living museum
out of these properties. They’d bought different types of property … a working man’s property,
one that would’ve been a mansion, one would’ve been a work place. But the DeShield sisters,
who were actually the descendants of Capt. DeShield that operated out of Fells Point
in the early 1800’s, they had … they didn’t have the money to really pull this off. They
took bad advice and finally ended up in bankruptcy. But they were really neat people. A lot of
people have talked against them, etc. They had their eccentric ideas. But they’re heart
was in the right place … but they just didn’t quite know how to pull it off. Some of their
legacy is still up here on Aliceanna Street, the old State Bar. But they had tons and tons
of stuff – records, and historic items. And a lot of ‘em have been lost now and
gone. T hey had a place, a mansion, on Eastern Shore, and a place up in Sparks, and all these
places here. But the DeShield sisters were a vital part of the planning council era.
They were the ones … Eleanor DeShield was a stickler … and these curb stones, these
curb stones out here in the square, they had the original markings, numbers for the market
stalls. Well they insisted that when they tore all this up in here that those curb stones
be placed back. And that’s why we still have some of the original curb stones out
here was because of the DeShield sisters. [Cut; 01:40:50;28]
It was like, this is Fells Point. What are we gonna have to do to continue that legacy,
ya know? As you pass down leadership from you … with all the gentrification going
through here … Actually, the word gentrification is wrong. I hate to use the word gentrification.
The more money being poured in here… What are we gonna have to do to pass that guard
down? Because one of the things I like about the community is the fact it does have the
preservation. And we have set in a place that was built in the 1700’s … ya know, and
we’re talking here and that’s just neat. All that stuff is neat. I don’t want to
see a Price Club move in, ya know. I want to see this kind of stuff, ya know.
We’re ready to start again. Okay. That wasn’t on the tape.
I got about half of it on the tape. The question basically is … the first time
I saw you, you were this leader guy with people and you’ve always preserved Fells Point
as history and there’s a group of you that do that. People we’ve interviewed, you know,
Bob Eney and those type of guys…. What do we have to do to pass that down, where do
you think Fells Point’s going? With the new money that’s been coming in here. We
don’t’ want to see … seeing Timothy’s coming in was bad enough. Another chain. I
don’t want that. And it seems there’s a lot of people who don’t what that either.
I want to see places like this survive. We’re sitting in a room that’s 1700’s here.
I don’t want an LA, ya know? I think … Step back a little bit. We’ve
been through a lot in Fells Point and one of the things that has held Fells Point together
was we have always been in a constant battle with the City. This has been both good and
bad. It’s been cohesive and it has been somewhat divisive. The divisiveness was, for
a long time, the business community versus the residents. And this was mainly the bars
versus the residents. And both sides had some merit on their … in what they were saying,
and standing for. I think one of the positive things that has happened ,and one of the things
I really have over the years I’ve been trying to do, is to pull these two factions together.
And got a bad name for that with some people because I did this, and this was my involvement
with the business community and the business association, which I was very involved with
for many years. … I was trying to show that the business community and the residents could
have a lot in common and probably did. It was just some … you had extremes on both
sides. You had some very badly operated businesses, and then you had some on the residents’
side who were just extreme in their nature. This has all now, thank goodness, this is
starting to meld and wane away. There’s still a little bit of it left, but in most
instances, that’s one of the positive things I have seen is more cooperation between the
businesses and the residents. That’s a positive. [01:45:13;00]
One of the negative things I’ve seen is the constant gnawing away of the historic
fabric of Fells Point. And I think here is where the future of Fells Point can be positive
– is that we need to somehow educate those people who are moving into Fells Point the
importance of its history. We have a history here that no other really community, I think,
in the country can say we have so much history that we have contributed to the development
of this country in such a way… And we don’t realize it here. The average resident doesn’t
know this, doesn’t realize how important this is. They don’t realize that their building
is a part of this fabric that has lived through the Battles of North Point and Fort McHenry.
And it was in these houses that people lived in that built the ships, the Baltimore Clippers,
etc., that really gave the United States the dominance on the seas during the War of 1812.
And the commerce that came out of here… They don’t realize that the immigration
that happened here…. That building has probably been occupied by several different nationalities
as waves of immigrants came through Fells Point. And here is where they got their start,
and then moved on to communities and East Baltimore and Northeast Baltimore… but didn’t
realize that it’s so important. And this is our biggest task, I think, is
to get people caught up in their history and then they can become proud of the community
they live in. This is a big thing. And I think this history, by getting caught up in this,
can then preserve that community feeling in Fells Point. And that’s why I started the
town crying back… it was a celebration of the ratification of the Constitution. It’s
back in ’87? Anyway, it was a parade that they had from here, it was back in that time
when the ratification … we held a parade that went from Fells Point over the Federal
Hill. And this little ship, The Federalist, was built for that parade. And they rebuilt
that ship, and we had that parade here. And it wasn’t any promotion being given to it
so somebody said, well we need a town crier for this. And maybe that use of a town crier
as a promotional for so that the TV stations would have somebody to connect to. So some
of us had gotten costumes for this parade, these outfits. So having [footsteps] a loud
voice, I was sort of designated being the town crier. And I did some promotionals for
TV stations etc. for this parade. But the town crying thing sort of stuck. And I started
to giving proclamations for visiting groups and did proclamations for the Mayor for a
while … and did some for him. But then I started to do the town crying through the
streets at Christmas-time… So that town crying thing also then two years ago began…
[01:50:17;20] You do the schooner race too, don’t ya?
Yeah, the schooner race every year. I mean, I started out the very first year with the
schooner race. And do that… I missed one year of doing town crying for the Captains’
meetings and that was because of my heart surgery, and I had lost my voice because of
the surgery. And that was the only year I didn’t do it. But that’s a fun one to
do because I try to dig up dirt on the people, and so that has become a tradition that if
I didn’t do that, they would be all over me.
What year did that start? Started about 11 years ago. The first captains’
meeting was held in the old Haussner’s place down here … Francie’s. The first captains’
meeting was held there. But anyway, I saw in this town crying thing an opportunity to
keep trying to promote the history of Fells Point, keep that alive. And so I have endowed
that program through the Preservation Society that the town crying program will continue
right on through history. And one of the newest parts of that program
is the 911 Award, and I’m particularly proud of this one because … we have been a community
that has been so active, have had so many people that have given countless hours of
their time and they get nothing in return, and never get recognized for this… And this
is the idea of the 911 Award is to [steps] is to recognize these people every year. And
of course the first one went to Nancy Conrad, who deserves it so much because she was ahead
of the Planning Council and established the Citizens on Patrol and has done so much behind
the scenes… And she deserved to be the first one to receive that Award.
[01:52:58;28] But, I see the town crying program as hopefully
… we can expand that program and help to be that educational arm that will help to
save the people. We need to be proud of what we have here. That’s a part of it. That’s
a big part of it. I … you know … a lot that held Fells Point together were the battles
that we had. That’s helped to keep the spirit alive. And to answer the question that you
gave me is, I think, the thing that we have is the battle now to keep our history alive
[pounds on table to emphasize]. That is the battle I think we are in now. The Federal
Government is going to be helping us out in this somewhat, because of the Stars Spangled
Banner Trail, that is the Park Service National Historic Trail that will celebrate the War
of 1812. And one of the centers … it was two centers of the War of 1812, one in the
northern boundary between Canada, and the other was the Chesapeake Bay area. They were
the two centers of the War of 1812. And we were a vital part of that. And now the National
Government is recognizing the fact that … how important the Chesapeake Bay area was to the
winning of the War of 1812. And they have established this historic trail that will
include Washington, Bladensburg, the landing points of the British, the battles of Eastern
Shore and, of course, Ft. McHenry and the Battle of North Point and Fells Point. We
are a part of that Trail. And hopefully that will help us to bring the history alive and
to the people here in Fells Point. But we need to educate our people here [pounds on
table again] so that they don’t destroy, we don’t destroy what we have in Fells Point.
We don’t destroy such things as this back room here in the Whistling Oyster.
That would be criminal act. It’s unbelievable. That man was around in the 1760’s.
We don’t destroy such things as this, this old brick-work and … But that is the battle
that is what I think is going to keep this community alive and together and this feeling
… working together in this battle. So, that’s where I see it right now as far as the future.
Want to take a break? [Jacquie takes place of interviewer.]
[01:56:43;22] Whatever you want to hear next….
I’m not going to tell you what to say. I know but do you have any categories that
you want, that I haven’t covered? No. I think that last piece was wonderful.
Because we keep trying to think what’s the theme for this whole thing and I think maybe
that’s what capturing one of the really big issues.
I think that’s the way it’s gotta be. That’s why I…
You’re on camera, by the way. You can tell when you’re on by this light there.
That’s why I have devoted my time now to the Preservation Society, working through
the Preservation Society… Because that’s where the real future is going to be. And
with Ellen and the Preservation Society now, we have a real strong leader. And the promoter
of the history which we didn’t have before too much. And … but….
Can you talk about Ellen’s contributions? Ellen? Ellen’s contribution to Fells Point,
it’s been really great… I’m not saying that the other people didn’t have something
to contribute – they did, in the Preservation Society. But she’s turned it around. She’s
not only a preservationist of the buildings. But she is one who sees the need for this,
this development of the history, the knowledge of our history. She sees the need for the
community to hear about this history, to learn about this history and she is also extremely
talented person. Very knowledgeable. She’s a Johnny-come-lately to Fells Point, but very
knowledgeable. Perhaps one of her biggest contributions is not only that’s changing
of direction of that Society… for a long time the Society was somewhat preserving the
buildings, but the big emphasis was the Fells Point Festival. And it was almost … they
lived for the Fells Point Festival. Ellen has changed that. Because her talent is in
writing grant proposals. She cranks out grant proposals like they’re going out of style.
She’s always coming up with other avenues of finding money to develop … and she’s
an extremely talented person. And as I said extremely concerned about the history here,
and getting that across to people. So, I think we’re really blessed to have Ellen.
I know and she’s so low-key and when I first started talking to her it was like…
Yeah. My first adventure was like… And then look at all the things she gets done
and all the stuff she puts up with… She goes along like she, like she’s an outsider…
But she’s … the more you get to know her and what she’s doing, it’s fantastic.
It’s just fantastic. I like to go around and talk with her so she can unwind and get
some of this out of her… And so I think we have that kind of relationship that she
can just unwind with me and that’s great. [02:01:10;02]
Who are some other people, if you were like going through a list of awards, who would
you give awards to, and what have these people contributed?
Oh gosh. Some of the people are no longer here. But, I can tell you one. I don’t know
whether I should do this or not because it may cloud the fact of this 911 Award, which
I would like to try to keep out of my hands as far as who gets the Awards. But there are
a couple of people around, I really think are unsung heroes here… and one of ‘em
are Charlie and Darcy Norton. They have done so much for this area, and behind the scenes…
And you can’t ask for two finer people than Charlie and Darcy. I think they deserve a
lot of credit. I think one has to also look to somebody,
or everybody knows, you have to look at Ed Kane. Ed was a businessman. And he had been
asked to bring his Water Taxi here early on, but saw it … Fells Point wasn’t ready.
When Brown’s Wharf opened up he said “I think it’s ready for the Water Taxi service.”
And Ed came through and he gave a shot in the arm to us here. I know Ed … Ed and I
and it was Zippy Lawson the first year Ed was here, went up to the Pennsylvania bus
tour show here and we did the tried to get the bus tours to come to Fells Point. And
we did that … Ed and I did that for the next couple years and we’d dress up and
all this kind of thing but we found out we didn’t have the mechanism here, the staff
here to follow through with that. But the vision was there. And Ed had vision. But it
centered around his business. But he realized that in order for his business to grow, Fells
Point had to become more than it was. It had to have something to draw people. And he was
constantly after that. So, Ed was one of those people that I think were very, very instrumental
in our history. I would have to say in their own way, the
DeShield sisters were very instrumental in Fells Point, posthumously. And … they had
… everybody has negative contributions and positive contributions. They had their negatives,
but they had their positives. And I think the positives in the long run outweighed the
negatives. I just … that’s just a couple people that I mention right now.
There’s another one. Mary Rose Wheeley spent so much time, not only with Preservation Society,
but whether you agreed with her or not, that’s not important, but she spent so much time
in following along with the Liquor Board and a lot that went on there. She was one of those
people that are behind the scenes and never really got the credit that she should get.
Anyway, let me drop it at that. [02:06:08;09]
You were going to ask something else, Kraig, when you first came back here. You were going
to ask PJ something? No.
I can put you on camera if you don’t behave. No
A senior moment. While he’s thinking, here’s … let me
give you a couple interesting stories. I do these special services here in Fells
Point on Christmas Eve, Easter morning, and Thanksgiving. And that all started out of
… Ed called me up one day, or was it Cammie? I don’t know… one of the two. And said
“We’re getting married. Would you perform the ceremony?” Well, I never really liked
to get into that marriage ceremony business because if I couldn’t do it for one person
and did it for another and there was a reason I couldn’t do it, there’s a lot of hard
feelings created by it. But I said … with Cammie and Ed I broke down and said yeah.
I didn’t have my license from the Lutheran Church at that time, but I had gotten one
of these license-through-the-mail-order type of thing. I forget what the outfit is called.
It’s out of California. But anyway, legally I could marry people. So I said, “Well,
what do you want? Do you want me in a robe and all that kind of stuff?” And they said
“Yeah, yeah, yeah.” And so I got the robe out and it’s a white robe, and it was yellow
from years of … so I bleached it and bleached it … and the stole was falling apart and
I sewed that together and … to make a long story short went over there, and did the wedding
in the house. And it sort of clicked at the time that maybe I should get back in and … ‘cause
there’s a void in Fells Point, and that’s a spiritual void. And that’s when I started
the first service I had was the Easter Sunrise Service, and that was the first service that
you came to. So that’s what got me back into it, was Ed and Cammie that wedding. And
since then, I have gone on and now I’m reinstated with the Lutheran Church and I have that church
out in Ellicott City on a part-time basis. But, one of the things that I do want to do
is still in my plans and works is that, as I’m redoing this building back here, the
greenhouse I had in the back will be turned into a meeting room. And I do hope to do some
things with Fells Point along the lines of discussion groups, etc. about the Christianity.
What about a small church. Or a small church even.
You know, that’s another thing too, it seems … that’s one of the questions I’ve always
had when we started going to services with you. It took so much spirit back in 1812,
if there wasn’t that much a belief in God and Country … we would have lost. It seems
that’s so much dwindled now and every man is for himself and we forget about … God.
Yeah. There is a void here. And I know … and people I’ve talked to a lot of people. My
problem has been to get a meeting spot that I could count on. And so I said well basically,
basically that is why I’ve kept the building. So that I would have a meeting spot for down
here. Or else I would’ve probably sold it. But that was the crowning point in my decision
in keeping that building was that. How far are you away from making it a reality?
Maybe about a year. And they’re working on the third floor now and next week will
be the second and finally the first floor. So it may be about a year. So, I’m hoping
that … but coming to fruition … because the need I think is there.
[02:11:36;22] There was something else I wanted to say and
I got on that tangent. How long have you had a beard? You stopped
smoking a pipe, I guess. I haven’t seen a pipe. Maybe you still smoke a pipe.
… See I got the beard … when I had sideburns and a moustache. I grew those when I was out
at the church at Augsburg in West Baltimore. The beard came along when I was working at
Inner Harbor Lumber. What happened was I had a store and when they did this….
What year?? I would say, let’s see, in about ‘81,
’82, somewhere around in there. The story is that when they made the square
out here, it took ‘em a year. They had it torn up wall to wall, from property line to
property line. They had torn it up. What little business I had over here was taken away, and
my shop.... So I closed the shop. In the meantime, I had gotten married the second time around
… closed the shop and took on a job at Inner Harbor Lumber as a salesman. And then I became
Assistant Manager. And then they opened a new store up, and then I was the manager of
that and had to open that. That’s when I grew the beard, during that time.
Because you really have that seafaring thing going on. I mean, that’s when I first saw
you with the Greek fisherman’s cap I thought, arrrrggghhh, me lads. [laughter]
I sort of adopted it. I don’t know… Funny story is, I took on that look, but I’m
not really that crazy about water. I’m more of a mountain person than I am a water person.
Well you never know. The first time I saw you I thought you were some sailing guy, aaarrggghh.
No, no. more of a… I have a little bit of an idea. You were starting
to talk about all the meetings when they were putting together I guess it was the Urban
Renewal Plan. Yeah, it was the urban renewal.
You kind of dropped it after that, and I was hoping you tell us more about the major disagreements
within the community. [02:14:24;22]
Yeah, because we had talked about that over … when we met.
Going back to that time with the Lou Sauers plan. The thing that was developed out of
that plan was the Urban Renewal Ordinance. The big disappointment … there were several
big disappointments. They never got in … although Reed and I, every town meeting would stand
up and say “We need to do something about arranging for parking.” And they’d say, “Yeah, yeah, we’ll come
to it.” Until just recently, they never really got to the parking situation.
But, the urban renewal ordinance … the City came through with the urban renewal ordinance
that was disastrous. Because in the original urban renew ordinance they stated that, if
you had Formstone on your building that the city could come along and say we’ll give
you a year to take that Formstone off. If not, we’ll condemn the building, take it
over and become the real estate agent and sell that building. Also, most of these buildings
here historically were 2-l/2 story buildings. And the fronts and third floor were added
on later. That’s what Bob Eney was talking about.
And so, this urban renewal ordinance said in it that the City could do the same thing,
they could come around and say, “You’ve got to come down to the original roof line.
And we give you a year to do it, if not we condemn it and take it over and sell it.”
So there were a couple of us, the DeShield sisters, Father Terrence from St. Stan’s
who was Assistant minister there, Bob … I can’t think of his last name now. And my
wife and me. Bob Keith?
No it wasn’t Bob Eney. Keith?
No, no, no. So anyway, he was a psychiatrist, this guy.
So anyway, we formed a paper committee because … to oppose these points in the Urban Renewal
Ordinance because we had elderly people here who, No. 1, could never afford to do what
they said and they would be kicked out of their homes. And so we fought it. And they
were to have … the Urban Affairs Committee on the City Council was to have their meeting
for discussion of this urban renewal ordinance at St. Stan’s. So I called up, who was then
the big talk show host in the City was WBAL, Allan Christian… and I called him up one
day off the air … and talk shows by that, were just starting at that time, and they
would only be on in the evening, not all day long. But anyway, I called him off the air
and I told him the situation. And I read to him what the things … he said, “Come on
and I’ll put you on the air.” So it was my wife, myself and Father Terrence, went
and talked about what this Urban Renewal Ordinance was all about, and the disastrous effects
this could have on a lot of people. Low and behold, this group of eight of us, six of
us, helped to turn out over 800 people in the St. Stan’s auditorium. And we defeated
that original Urban Renewal Ordinance. And later on that year, you find out that the
City of Baltimore, if you want something passed without any opposition in City Council, you
do it during Christmas week. So then Mayor Schaefer had a modified Urban Renewal Ordinance
passed in City Council during that week, Christmas week. But we had defeated those disastrous
parts of that Urban Renewal Ordinance. I’m probably, as far as contributions to Fells
Point, I’m probably most proud of that one, that one thing, defeating, because it was
so disastrous. Now, according to Bob Eney, when people bought
homes that had been condemned, they had a list of things they had to do as part of a
contract with the City. This Urban Renewal Ordinance would have affected more properties
than just that, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. The Urban Renewal Ordinance
would have effected not just those condemned properties for the road, It was any property
in the historic area, the Urban Renewal area, which went I think, up to Bank Street, south
part of Bank Street, and Caroline Street and Washington Street. So, it affected any of
these places in here. [02:20:27;10]
There was a hole in the donut which was centered around St. Stan’s was not included. And
today we’re living with the threat of what’s going to happen with St. Stan’s.
What is going to happen with St. Stan’s? Is anybody there?
Nobody’s there. Who’s keeping the building up, the Catholic
Church? The Catholic Church. The Franciscans still
own the property. Now… I heard a lot in the community and Nancy’s been a part of
this, Conrad, been trying to save the building as a museum. And so … but I heard that the
Franciscans denied their request, but I can’t be sure on that.
[end of tape; 02:21:19;07] “Park free or die” stickers?
Oh, that was one of the side effects of … that kept this thing, this controversy with the
bars and the homeowners … Because the homeowners were … didn’t … were being crowded out
of parking their cares because of the nighttime bars …traffic. And so they came up with
the becoming a part of this permit parking. Well, then the business community said, “Hey,
you can’t do this. This is is gonna hurt us.” So we got into that point of contention
… and that just fueled the battles between really the bars and the residents. And that
permit parking thing was more of a fuel thing. It wasn’t… If it hadn’t been contention
before, I don’t know if it would have become as big a point of contention as it was. But
the contentions were that these bars became too, too noisy. Here you had bars in old buildings
and maybe residences along side them or close to them. And these old buildings were not
built to contain sound. And so, with the new sound equipment that came in, you just blast
the residents away … off. And some of these… I know I had the problem with the Max’s
when they had live bands. You couldn’t sleep at night. But it was all because of the technology
and the sound, etc. But also, you had bars that were catering to college kids and even
younger. And the first one of these was Surfside Sally’s. And it was Surfside Sally’s that
changed … that really changed the bar scene down here. For instance, Whistling Oyster
used to be… oh, mainly older folks that would come here. When Surfside Sally’s came,
they drove these people away because the older people didn’t want to be associated with
the rowdyism of this younger crew. It hurt the nighttime businesses of retail. I know
I used to… we opened the shop in ’86. The … I used to do, for instance at Christmas
on the weekends, I’d stay open until 12:00 at night and the shop would be filled with
customers. I mean 20, 30 people up until 12:00 at night on the weekends.
Were these college kids, the older people, or?
No these are older people, middle age, older people that would come. We had the candlelight
Christmas program, which we haven’t talked about, but that was created … I experimented
my first year I had the shop open the second time around and I experimented with a late-time
shopping that year and decided the next year, I got some of the businesses together and
said, “Look this is what we can do. This is what happens…” my experiences. And
we created the candlelight Christmas that went on for 7 or 8 years until I couldn’t
do it anymore. It was after my surgery I had to drop out of it. But that Candlelight Christmas
was 4 weekends in a row. We had horse and carriages in the streets that gave rides.
I wonder if you remember them? But used to draw tremendously. And we were really getting
the thing rolling … and it takes years to develop a program like that because you get
on people’s schedules and calendars, etc. And we were really getting rolling. Then Surfside
Sally’s came in and all of a sudden people started to… that program started to dwindle
off the table. Because people didn’t want to be associated with that rowdyism. They
didn’t want to come down here and have that happen.
And then you had Tina and Tony’s Wedding. Tony and Tina’s Wedding. And Perloff had
bought into that and they opened up the Sanctuary. And then that started to feed off Surfside
Sally’s … and you had that. And then Surfside Sally’s, we were able to get closed. And
then that was a big fighting … and that fight was joined by some of the bar owners
here. And that was the first time that that has ever happened, that the business community
started to fight some of that irresponsibility of bar owners. We saw it with after Sanctuary,
then 723 came and we all know what happened there and how the actual bars testified at
that hearing against 723. And so you saw this melding of people of bars and community coming
together. But it was that night time rowdy group that
urinated in people’s mail slots and into their homes and walked on top of cars and
broke windows and, you know, pulling up flowers out of pots and took pots and threw them in
the streets and … It was this kind of thing that got the bars and the residents on odds.
Because the bars say, “Well, we’re not responsible for that.” And the residents
would say, “Well, who is then?” And it was that kind of thing going back and forth.
[02:28:36;14] Well, currently, the business owners are complaining
that business has been really slow and even the bar owners are saying that. Do you have
any perspective on the business in Fells Point? Okay. Two things happened. And this is my
perspective on that. The same time you had these kiddy bars come in, you also had in
the City, or in the metropolitan area, the hijacking of cars. I don’t know if you remember
that. You had a rash of cars that were being … with people in them … hijacked, car
jacks. And the explosion of murders in the city. It got a lot of publicity. So you had
two things. And the other thing was parking. You had the kiddy bars down here that the
people didn’t want to associate with, then you had the fact that the bar traffic was
taking up the parking spots, so nobody could really come down here and shop with ease.
And then you had this negative perception of the City. We are in the city. People, in
order to get here from the outlying sections, have to come through the City to get here.
And they were scared and afraid. And as I saw my traffic dwindle in my shop, I asked
questions to the customers that would come in and say, “Do you know why?” And they
would say, ”People are scared to come into the city.” So it was a combination of things
that happened together. But I think the biggest thing was that Baltimore City got the reputation
across the nation, this was not just local, across the nation, of being an unsafe place.
We used to, my shop used to draw from the whole metropolitan area, the whole middle
Atlantic coast, and even drew as far as Nova Scotia, because there was an article about
my shop … was it Nova Scotia? No. Iceland. So I got an article in the Icelandic paper
about the angels. And if people from Iceland would come to the mid-Atlantic area mainly
to go to Washington, etc., they would come to Baltimore to stop in my shop. Then this
thing spread about Baltimore. And Baltimore is still under that cloud, very much under
that cloud. You get the, it was in the news last night, last couple days, about Downtown
Partnership and panhandling. It’s that fear factor that people have and it’s going to
take years to try to overcome this now, and I think we can overcome it.
It’s almost like TV viewership. Once the person turns the channel, they’re never
going back to that channel…. Once they decided they’re not coming down to the City, they’re
gonna go some place else. And you got to start all over again to wooing
them. And again … I hate to say there’s a cure-all, but I
turn back the partial answer to those whole thing is this history business. I think that
if we can get people involved and the businesses involved in the history, then I think we may
be able to lure some people back. Because we’ll become unique. We’ll become different.
What’s the sense of coming to Fells Point when you can shop in some mall or whatever,
or Wal-Mart or something. We’ve got to become that unique spot and our history can give
us that uniqueness and our shops and businesses and restaurants have to take up on this. I
think if the business community here is to be successful, it’s got to become aware
of this history and the importance of this can play.
The number 1 tourist attraction across the country, number 1 tourist attractions, are
historic spots. Number 1. Far exceeds seashores, far exceeds anything else…. Historic spots.
We got to realize this. And the business community, I haven’t gotten a real late sense, but
Ellen’s gotten involved with the business community, Business Association, but we got
to pick up on that. [02:34:36;07]
Can I go back and fill in a couple of places? Yeah.
I have the impression that during and dafter the road battle, there was a group of people
who bought properties and were interested in historic preservation or interested in
improving their properties… had at least some money to put into ‘em, some more than
others. And then there was the long term resident in the community. And it sounds like there
was a lot of divisiveness between those two groups. Can you give me some reasons for that?
Originally, it was a lot of divisiveness… And it was, I think on the one side of the older
residents, it was some type of a fear of losing what they had. And with the new residents
… and I’m afraid that first Urban Renewal Ordinance was tied to some of those new residents.
The thing of tearing down the Formstone and the third floor, etc. This was tied to that.
And that group was called ORRA … Owners Restoring whatever Association, but it was
ORRA and then there was the Fells Point Improvement Association. And the Fells Point Improvement
Association was the older residents. ORRA was the newer coming in restoring. And we
got off to a bad start. And the bad start was during that whole thing of the Lou Sauers
plan, the town meetings, etc. The older people thought they were being ramrodded by the newer
ones coming in. And when that Urban Renewal Ordinance came in, that was just disastrous.
And then it was a lot of finger pointing going on. And the battles that the… the residents…
the battles at the town hall meetings were just notorious and … it was old residents
against new residents. The old residents didn’t really understand … they thought they were
being kicked out of the community. And the newer residents didn’t do anything to assure
them that they weren’t being kicked out. So that became, it was a lot of perception
that was going on. You know, I perceive that you don’t want me, or I perceive this…
I perceive that … and that feeds on itself. And then you had some people that came in
for their own political advantages who festered on that, and ate upon that. I won’t mention
any names, but they just fed on that and kept that going and kept that festering instead
of, you know, bringing together the healing process. They kept for their own good, or
own egos or whatever, I don’t know. But they needed that contention and they kept
it going live and just… [02:38:31;25]
Okay. I’m going to change the subject totally, totally again. This was, you know, in recent
… in the first part of the 1900’s was a fairly lower class community such that,
you know, the City thought it was totally expendable to put a road through. One of the
things that I have noticed is, there was the Allied Chemical site that some people call
a Superfund site, although I don’t know if it technically was. There is a whole bunch
of area along Caroline that people talk about as a brownfield. I know a guy that was the
Environmental Manager of the P&G soap plant and he talks about spills and things and of
course Fells Point would have been a victim of some of those things. And it was a very
much … I mean now you have the shops and bars and things and you have people, residents,
but then it was industry plus bars and shops and people. Can you tell me … did people
notice any of that? No, they didn’t. They really didn’t. Because
a lot of the people here in the 20th Century, they were later immigrants, the Polish community,
but this was their livelihood. They earned their money off of that waterfront or that
industry or whatever or that cannery in the early part of the 20th Century, late 1800’s.
But that was their living. There was some people…
That was also before the knowledge of cancer… They didn’t know what caused cancer and
the whole thing. Later on, we found out that we had so many cancer deaths in Fells Point,
it was way out of proportion to the national average.
Even more than Baltimore? Yeah. It was high cancer rate here. But…
What happened… the awareness started to filter out, I mean … was there any public
discussion of it? No, not really. The environmental thing wasn’t
really too big at all. You didn’t get that. It wasn’t a concern with the older residents.
The newer ones… The newer ones, it was somewhat more of a
concern. But they moved in here and they sort of accepted it.
And then when the Allied site was closed down and what was their reaction?
It wasn’t much reaction about it… the Allied site. Except that then it became aware,
people really became aware of how contaminated that spot was. And the Allied people, to their
credit, kept coming to all the community meetings telling of their progress in the clean-up.
And that helped out a lot by them reassuring the people what they were doing here and how
they were cleaning the spot up. And so to their credit, Allied Signal did one terrific
job in keeping the community informed. That was
a very … but generally in
the old community the people … that was their livelihood I mean all this was around.
probably need to break. Do you
have any last thoughts. No. I
think I’ve gotten through… [Kraig and Jacquie]
You’re hot, PJ. Jacqueline Greff, Producer – Tonal Vision
LLC – transcribed by Wallie Meeks, March 2, 2004 – Page 26 of 26
Interview from the preparation of Fell’s Point
Jacqueline Greff, Producer – Tonal Vision LLC – transcribed by Wallie Meeks, March
2, 2004 – Page 1 of 26