Google Games Chat #3!

Uploaded by GoogleDevelopers on 30.08.2012

BILL LUAN: Shanghai GDG is a very
interesting developer community.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I'm glad somebody
has asked this question.
MALE SPEAKER: This is where the magic happens.
FEMALE SPEAKER: This is primarily a question and
answer show.
So if any of you out there would like to ask questions--

We are on?
We are on.
WOLFF DOBSON: Is it on me again?
All right, we got a thumb's up.
We are on.
We apologize for being late.
We are in our brand-new newly configured studio.
So let's just do quick introductions.
To my right, your left, probably, we have the
irrepressible Colt McAnis.
COLT MCANIS: Irrepressible.
TODD KERPELMAN: Irrepressible.
COLT MCANIS: That's what they used to
call me in high school.
TODD KERPELMAN: To my immediate left, we have the
irresponsible Wolff Dobson.
WOLFF DOBSON: That's me.
TODD KERPELMAN: And then over more, we've got the iridescent
John McCutchan.

COLT MCANIS: I like that.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, thanks.
COLT MCANIS: I like that.
WOLFF DOBSON: Now we've started a trend.
We've got to do this next week.
TODD KERPELMAN: So we are going to jump right into
things because I know we're a little late.
We've got a lot on our agenda.
TODD KERPELMAN: I want to follow up with basically three
answers to questions or comments that were on our
YouTube stream from last time.
Let's see, the first was someone said, "Hey, you guys
should do this as a regular thing." And that is our plan.
Our plan is every second Thursday, unless we're sick or
something, we're going to be here.
So put it on your calendar, and we'll start scheduling
these out more.
And this can sort of be a thing.
COLT MCANIS: And also, tell you friends.
TODD KERPELMAN: Until we get canceled.
Yeah, and tell your friends.
COLT MCANIS: Can we get canceled?
COLT MCANIS: I mean, we don't have any corporate sponsorship
or anything.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We're getting a nod, "yes."
WOLFF DOBSON: There's no corporation involved in this
at all, is there?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We're getting a big,
"yes." We can be canceled.
WOLFF DOBSON: We can, in fact, be canceled.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: It's already happened.
TODD KERPELMAN: We can get canceled in the
middle of this program.
WOLFF DOBSON: It's like, I'm just going to
take my mike off.
It's over now.
Let's see, the second question was about my laptop cover.
And so for those of you who were wondering, it is from
Okami, which was a fantastic game that came out.
It was by Capcom.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, it was Capcom, yeah.
TODD KERPELMAN: I guess, was it Clover Studio was the
developer, Capcom publisher?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That sounds about right.
It was a PS2 game?
TODD KERPELMAN: It came out for the PS2.
It was a beautiful game.
The game play was really interesting, really
innovative, and it was darn fun.
And they're actually re-releasing it this year for
the PlayStation 3.
COLT MCANIS: Oh, cool.
TODD KERPELMAN: So if you have never had a chance to play
Okami, and I consider that a travesty--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: They also released it for the Wii.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: A couple years ago, yeah.
WOLFF DOBSON: And it is Zelda-esque in its play, but
with just a fantastic art style.
TODD KERPELMAN: The art is fantastic.
The drawing on the screen with your magical pen is fantastic.
It sounds hokey, but it's really well done.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Oh, it's awesome.
WOLFF DOBSON: Todd's a romantic at heart.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I think it made a lot of Best Game of the
Year lists.
TODD KERPELMAN: I think it did.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: It's a really great game.
TODD KERPELMAN: It was a great game but just wasn't as
commercially successful as it should have been.
And I consider that, still, an injustice.
And I'm on a--
I don't know--
single-handed crusade to fix it.
So go buy Okami.
WOLFF DOBSON: For the PlayStation 3,
which is not out yet.
Well, PlayStation 3's out.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, that's true.
PlayStation 3 is out.
TODD KERPELMAN: I don't have one.
That was not a hint, Sony.
I can't accept gifts.
WOLFF DOBSON: He's not hardcore.
COLT MCANIS: Maybe you might not want to mention that
during the Games Chat.
TODD KERPELMAN: That is true.
COLT MCANIS: That kind of eliminates a little bit of
your street cred.
WOLFF DOBSON: I don't really play games, as such.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I've never played a game.
TODD KERPELMAN: Our third issue--
I kind of got called out on Google+ for basically dodging
the like, "hey, how am I going to be able to have my single
login everywhere" question.
And so I thought about.
It's like, you know, he's right.
I skipped the question.
And so I put together a little demo that is hopefully not
going to crash, that I'm going to try and show right now.
So hey, Lewis, can we switch to my laptop?
Let's see if we can show this.
COLT MCANIS: Aren't we supposed to call him "Jimmy"?
COLT MCANIS: Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
Jimmy, can I get that on a live feed?
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, are we on?
All right.
So if everything's working, you should see
two browsers here.
And so basically, the answer to, "hey, what do I do if I
want to login in multiple places?
How do I know that this is the same user" is to use Google+,
use the Google+ identity.
It's available right now on the web.
And it's in developer preview right now for iOS, and I
believe it's coming soon for Android.
I just wanted to show you really quickly how this kind
of thing might work.
Let's say you're a game developer and you've got a web
version of your game, your iOS version of the game.
Maybe they're not exactly the same, but you want to reward
players a reward in one game for completing tasks in
another or something like that.
Basically, we would use login.
I'm going to say, yes.
And after I've logged in, basically we have this giant
number that is my user ID and that is unique.
And you can use that basically as a key in your database to
track any user properties you want.
So here I'm going to have my little Saved Game as "Hello
World" or "Hello Word." All right, let's Save that.
And now I'm going to go over to the iPhone
and let's sign in.
And hopefully, let's say Allow Access.
Wait for it, and there it is.
So basically, all I'm doing here is, again, I'm just
querying the same database using my Google+ identity as
the key, the thing that identifies me.
And I can go back and forth.
I can now say I am Level 1.
And I will save that to the server.
And then at some point later, I come back to whatever
version of the game is on the web, and I can refresh that,
and I can go back and forth.
COLT MCANIS: So now, a quick question for you, Todd.
COLT MCANIS: So what is the authentication protocol that
Google+ is using?
COLT MCANIS: Fantastic.
So this means that, effectively, anyone developing
with this protocol won't actually have to write login
code or anything like that, right?
TODD KERPELMAN: That is correct.
COLT MCANIS: Excellent.
TODD KERPELMAN: And yeah, that is good because it saves you
from having to deal with all the security issues of, oh,
I've got to secure the user's password on my server, and I
got to do it in a way that makes sure it doesn't get
hacked, and blah, blah.
We deal with most of that for you.
COLT MCANIS: Interesting.
Well, which is a good point, too, is that you guys saw on
the live feed that token which identified Todd.
It's worth pointing out, for security purposes, you
shouldn't store the user's password and username around.
Let OAuth take care of that.
But you definitely will need to make sure that that user
token is cached somewhere on your server to connect them
from whatever instance they are to whatever
login they're using.
In a real situation, I would probably--
I think for the purposes of this demo, which is totally
insecure and don't actually do it, I'm just sending down my
user ID and saying, hey, this is me.
Really what you want to be sending down is a token that
you can then use on the server side to say let's find out who
this person really is, and then use the session ID or
something to help you keep track of that.
WOLFF DOBSON: Exactly, you should use your own session
rather than [INAUDIBLE].

TODD KERPELMAN: After you've logged in.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, once you've logged in, generate
your own session key, and then use that to
identify the player.
And then you'll also be able to tell the difference between
the player on the phone and the player on the browser
because they'll have different session keys.
COLT MCANIS: Now, are those session key-- like is that an
easy thing to grab through the + API?
WOLFF DOBSON: No, no, no.
This is-- you should generate your own session key.
COLT MCANIS: So when the user logs in--
WOLFF DOBSON: Once they've logged in, you've gone through
the OAuth flow, you've got their access token.
And depending on which flow you use, you might also be a
refresh token.
Then at that point, you should probably generate your own
session ID.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So if you have to generate a session ID, do
you have to do that in a secure way
or can it be anything?
WOLFF DOBSON: Honestly, it can really--
I mean, session IDs are session IDs, right?
I mean, MD5 hash your favorite random number, and
send that on down.
It just has to be something that every time you make a
connection, you say, by the way, this is me.
This is the guy I authenticated to do this.
TODD KERPELMAN: And as a general rule, we say pass
everything down as securely as possible.
All of Google is--
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, right.
I mean, you--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So if it's on me, it's a
generated session ID.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, yeah, your session ID
shouldn't be like, 1.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: How about the MD5 sum of 0?
WOLFF DOBSON: Yes, exactly.
And then the other thing about that is that the access token
will eventually expire.
But you can get a new one with a refresh token.
Or if you're operating inside a gadget or some other
mechanism like that, it'll actually auto refresh for you
if you use our client libraries, which we strongly
recommend you do.
We spent a long time hassling with this so that
you don't have to.
So we have client libraries in Ruby,
Python, Go, Java, Android--
Whatever you need, we probably have one of those.
If you don't, you should suggest it.
We'll look into it.
TODD KERPELMAN: So while I'm sure our audience who is
logged in to find out all about games is thrilled with
this OAuth 2.0 talk, I'm going to move on to another subject.
COLT MCANIS: Real quick, though.
COLT MCANIS: Is this demonstration here, can the
people at home grab this?
Can they play with this?
TODD KERPELMAN: I would not give this to the people at
home just because, like I said, we're essentially
trusting the client to tell me who their user ID is.
Really, I should be doing a secure version that only
trusts the client to send in OAuth token and then verify
that on the server.
TODD KERPELMAN: But then that involves--
COLT MCANIS: Fair enough.
Fair enough.
TODD KERPELMAN: --cleaning up some server code that I didn't
feel like doing.
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, so we are going to actually try a
little structure this time around.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, I think we also got called out for
babbling quite a bit last time, which is kind of the
whole agenda, anyway.
But we thought--
COLT MCANIS: It actually says right here, "babble."
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, exactly.
TODD KERPELMAN: But we thought we'd try something different.
We're going to have--
we need a catchier name for this, but like the "five for
five" section where we are going to--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That's pretty catchy.
All right.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Five for five.
WOLFF DOBSON: Or five by five.
TODD KERPELMAN: Five by five?
COLT MCANIS: Can we do like an F cubed?
Five for five.
WOLFF DOBSON: Ooh, I don't know.
I think I just feel like I'm in Aliens at that point.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, five by five.
WOLFF DOBSON: I mean, it's like five by five.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: There you go.
COLT MCANIS: There you go.
We'll let you do your thing.
So here's the idea.
We've got five topics.
We're going to talk about each one of them for five minutes.
I'm going to start the timer.
There's a timer?
TODD KERPELMAN: There's a timer.
WOLFF DOBSON: How can we get off-topic?
COLT MCANIS: The people asked for structure and this is how
we're giving it to them.
TODD KERPELMAN: This is what we're going to do.
And they might say it's--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: You've gone too far, though.
TODD KERPELMAN: I might have.
I'll tell you what.
We'll start it and see what happens.
And we'll probably change it all next time.
WOLFF DOBSON: Is this like one of those five minutes in
movies where it's actually like 15 minutes, and they just
keep cutting back to the red digital readout that's gone
back up a little bit?
COLT MCANIS: The timer's going to explode in five minutes!
20 minutes later.
The timer's going to explode in five minutes.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Still one minute left.
Let's do this.
TODD KERPELMAN: Here we go, topic number one.
WOLFF DOBSON: Topic number one.
Colt, you have kids.
COLT MCANIS: I do have children.
TODD KERPELMAN: I have children.
WOLFF DOBSON: I have a kid.
TODD KERPELMAN: You have children.
TODD KERPELMAN: You are a kid.
At heart.
WOLFF DOBSON: You remain a child.
Both emotionally--
Stunted in growth.
I mean, basically, I've come to the realization that this
is starting to become a trend where people that are parents
have been or are hardcore gamers.
And so I'm curious as to whether you think the fact
that gamers are growing up and having children is going to
somehow affect the games industry, either the games
that are made or how it affects us as consumers?
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, I know one of the things that happened,
my daughter's old enough now that we can actually play
games with a fair amount of complexity in them.
And so I sat her down with my Dreamcast and was like, OK,
let's play some games.
And we started playing.
We played weird games like Pen Pen Triicelon and strange
Japanese things.
And we also played fighting games, which she loves.
And that was the first time I really got proper back talk
from my daughter.
It was smack talk about--
it's like every time she beat me, especially if she pushed
me off the ledge, she would go, ha ha.
It's like, where did you learn this?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Your daughter is Nelson?
A little shorter.

But one of the things that came to mind, though, is that
actually how difficult that control system is.
When you're an analog joystick and a bunch of buttons, it's
not a natural thing.
It's absolutely a learned skill.
And it's something that I spend way too much of my life
learning how to be good at.
So when we were playing things like Sonic Adventure and
Rayman 2 and things like that, she just had a terrible time
lining up the camera and jumps, and getting her guy to
run straight, and figuring out that you move the camera and
then move your guy.
You run forward and move the camera.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That generation of 3D games, the
cameras were difficult, just in general.
They've gotten a lot smarter and smoother and--
WOLFF DOBSON: But she has the same problem when we sit down
and play Dragon Age.
She can figure it out, and she's getting better at it,
but it's one of those things where it's a learned thing.
When you hand her something that's on touch, when she has
a Nexus 7 and she's playing Plants vs. Zombies, the
distance between action and what I want to do and what I
can do, there's no learned skill in there.
It's like, I want to put that there, click.
So I think it's certainly driving me to reevaluate what
kinds of interfaces are good, what kinds of
interfaces are natural.
It's interesting to me how clunky and old some of those
UI conventions are at this point.
COLT MCANIS: For me, I think the big thing has been--
I know when we were all growing up, video games were
sort of taboo.
It was the geeky thing, right?
I mean, we spent a lot of time locked in our room staring at
some glowing TV that probably gave us some sort of radiation
in our brain.
WOLFF DOBSON: And being told by our parents that video
games would never--
COLT MCANIS: Would never get us on--
WOLFF DOBSON: We need any real jobs.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We'd never get a YouTube TV
show discussing games.
COLT MCANIS: So what I've noticed is this.
I mean, games are mainstream now.
I mean, I remember the first time that I actually saw an
advertisement for a video game on
television, it blew my mind.
And today, and this is what my wife and I constantly go back
and forth to.
I go out of my way to indoctrinate my children to
video games because it's the social norm now, right?
If your child is not playing video games, they're actually
in some cases left out of what society is doing, right?
It was like growing up, if you didn't watch The Simpsons,
there was a dialogue that you could not have at school with
the rest of the kids.
You weren't part of that social environment.
And games are that social environment today.
And so for me, it's been something I've had to force
myself to do because children, you want them outside, you
want them running and eating Play-Doh and stuff like that.
WOLFF DOBSON: You're going to sit down, and
you're going to play--
COLT MCANIS: And you're going to play your games today.
This is history 101.
Beat Bowser.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, and I find that I have an
attitude that I'm much--
and this is totally a connoisseur thing.
I'm less concerned about content level and
appropriateness as in terms of quality.
TODD KERPELMAN: That's what I was wondering is like my
daughter is still a little young for games, but I've
started looking at what games are out there for kids.
WOLFF DOBSON: It hurts sometimes.
TODD KERPELMAN: There's a lot that just aren't very good.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, you just sit there and go like, this is
not a game.
You can't play this because it annoys me.
It's like, let's bring on something decent.
And actually, the new Super Mario Brothers with the four
people playing at the same time?
My wife and I and my daughter will all sit around
and play this game.
And since it's got the catch-up feature where she
can, when it gets hard, she just bubbles and follows
wherever we're going, it's really good, and it's
But I also have her playing Dragon Age, which is probably
not appropriate.
I'm a bad parent.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: The SRB disapproves.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yes, exactly.
TODD KERPELMAN: I was actually saying I think you will see
more games like what Nintendo is doing where multiple people
of varying skill levels can play together in the same
Like Mario Galaxy 2, I believe, just has that feature
where it's like one person who can deal with manipulating the
camera and jumping over these crazy 3D jumps, and one person
just goes around and collects the stuff.
I think a lot of that is perfect for--
COLT MCANIS: Besides the fact that--
COLT MCANIS: Besides the fact that being a crazy game, they
actually got that design mechanic right.
The rest of the game was--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We didn't get to my
opinion as a gaming parent.
WOLFF DOBSON: You tell us.
What should your parents have done for you?
COLT MCANIS: I thought we were over the five minute line.
TODD KERPELMAN: We are, but real quick.
WOLFF DOBSON: You get two sentences.
COLT MCANIS: Haiku it.
WOLFF DOBSON: That's not a sentence.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, let's go to the next one.
TODD KERPELMAN: I am so glad that we
extended time for that.
WOLFF DOBSON: When it comes time to edit, I think I know
where we're going.
TODD KERPELMAN: Here's my next question.
So the mobile space, all we've been hearing is free to play,
free to play, free to play.
That's the big trend.
Everything's going free to play.
And then last month, two months ago, Square Enix
releases Final Fantasy III for like $16, $17,
something like that.
And it is A, very well received by the community.
People say, well, it's expensive,
but it's a good game.
It's worth it, and has been doing fairly
well for them, I think.
And in fact, they just announced The World Ends with
You is coming to mobile for like $20, something like that.
So my question is, do we think this is the start of a trend
where we're going to start seeing the free to play games,
but the games where you're going to pay for them upfront
are actually going to be more expensive.
They're going to be in the $15 to $20 range and that $1 to $3
range is now no-man's land?
WOLFF DOBSON: You get to answer this first since you're
not a parent.
I've been playing Final Fantasy III on my Nexus phone,
and it's awesome.
It is a great--
Those guys back in the day, they knew how to write a game.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, no kidding.
It's a great game.
It's a great port, and the experience works.
I mean, a lot of the more expensive premium games
require very intricate controls, like Wolff was
talking about.
But Final Fantasy is a turn-based
game for all battles.
So it works really well on a phone.
And I hope to see more of them.
COLT MCANIS: Yeah, I think that we're going
to see more of this.
I think this is not just a fad.
I think that Square Enix is the right company to come out
and do this.
They have a great catalog of amazing content.
I mean, we all grew up idolizing the game, wasting
our lives playing these.
Not wasting our lives, but having lots of fun playing
these games.
And I think we're going to see a lot more of these companies
that have back catalog of content bringing it over to
this new medium and creating new content.
Because right now, let's admit it, the $0.99 thing is fun and
awesome, but sometimes you just want something more.
And I think they're finding this new ecosystem.
Because we've seen it happen on Steam, right?
Steam, the price cap was actually pretty high, and then
we started seeing that $12 to $18 range of titles start
coming through the door and actually doing very well and
monetizing very well there.
And I think it's about time to come over to mobile.
I'm encouraged by this.
I want to see more of it.
WOLFF DOBSON: There's a repertory theater
aspect to it, too.
Where we're taking the games that do work, unlike--
I love Pen Pen Triicelon.
I do.
It's a very strange game.
COLT MCANIS: From the name, I would not have expected that.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We're getting the greatest hits, right?
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, exactly.
We're going back and we're sorting through these things.
And what are the things that-- where the UI isn't crazy and
the cameras work and things like that, and
bringing them forward.
And in cases like Nintendo, they're actually re-imagining
some of these things a little bit.
Like when you sit down and play New Super Mario Bros.,
you're like, oh, this world is shaped like that other world,
but is not quite the same.
It's a little easier.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: The thing is, even though we are getting the
greatest hits, Final Fantasy III is showing that that genre
and structure of game can work in the mobile space.
COLT MCANIS: Which we've been missing, right?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So maybe we're going to get new content, new
games, that are of that same structure, but they're modern.
WOLFF DOBSON: There's an aspect where Square Enix has
spent millions upon millions of dollars marketing these
games when they originally launch, so they have this
incredible warm feeling when they come out.
If I were a custom developer, a new developer who also had
ambitions to build the next great Final Fantasy, marketing
becomes a real important question there.
Like where are you going to get the money to build the
brand awareness so that when people come there, they're
like, damn, I'm spending $15 on that.
One of the reasons why we all went out and dropped $60 on
Final Fantasy, or $50, or $70 or whatever you paid.
WOLFF DOBSON: At the moment in which it came out.
TODD KERPELMAN: Oh, oh, you mean way back in the day.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, exactly.
Whatever day.
Whenever you bought it.
TODD KERPELMAN: I don't know where you bought yours, but
mine was $16.
WOLFF DOBSON: That's what she said it cost,
so I just paid it.
COLT MCANIS: You're going to the wrong sites.
But we wanted to pay it because we'd seen the
trailers, and we'd seen the things, and gotten the hype.
And we were like, yeah, $15.
I'm there, I'm going to do it.
And I think that's part of the emotional play you have to
make as a developer.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I think for when I first played Final
Fantasy II or IV in--
WOLFF DOBSON: Depending on which numbering
system you're using.
The hype was the playground hype.
It was, holy crap, I rented this game over the weekend.
It was amazing.
You remember back when kids rented games?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Get on your bicycle, bike over to--
COLT MCANIS: I'm so old.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: --Jumbo Video, and get yourself a game.
Yes, yes.
TODD KERPELMAN: You'd have the instruction manual that was
typewritten because that was the one thing that they
couldn't actually--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I actually remember
going with my friends--
maybe this doesn't translate to America-- but Canadian
Tire, where they actually have their own currency, Canadian
Tire Dollars.
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh yeah, they have their own credit cards
and stuff, too.
It's like the most popular credit card in Canada.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Well, Canadian Tire currency, it's like you
get maybe 1% back on all your purchases.
And my friend somehow saved up $70 worth of Canadian Tire
money and bought Final Fantasy II.
I remember going on that trip.
COLT MCANIS: That should somehow become a T-shirt.
I don't know how, where.
If you make T-shirts and you're watching this stream,
make that into a T-shirt.
I will buy it.
Also, if you're out there and you make T-shirts and you make
any Metriod T-shirts, I will also buy those
COLT MCANIS: Got to represent the Metroid.
We have 10 seconds left.
COLT MCANIS: Even in 10 seconds, I want to say this,
is that I really do want to come back to the concept of
how do indie developers market in this new economy because
there's a lot of stuff there that we don't--
WOLFF DOBSON: I think that's a great topic.
We could do a whole show on that.
COLT MCANIS: Yeah, absolutely.
COLT MCANIS: Write that down.
Sorry, my thing--
all right.
Well, that was sort of one of our topics.
WOLFF DOBSON: I don't know how to stop it.
COLT MCANIS: This modern technology.
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, less business-y talk, more
game-y talk.
TODD KERPELMAN: Favorite boss fight.
Start with you, John.
TODD KERPELMAN: Or most memorable.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Actually, Final Fantasy IV.
The end boss, Zeromus.

The very same friends who went to Canadian Tire and bought
this game, we spent an entire summer trying
to beat this boss.
We made it all the way through the game and then got stuck.
And we just had to-- we started-- it was my first
experience grinding in a game, just leveling up
and leveling up.
And it was this huge trek just to get to the boss.
There was no save spot right next to the boss, so it was
maybe half an hour of game play to get from the closest
save spot to the boss, only to lose again,
and again, and again.
But the music and the graphics, it was amazing.
TODD KERPELMAN: I was going to say, that doesn't sound like a
positive experience.
That sounds like--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: It was, though.
WOLFF DOBSON: But you felt good when you were done.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, when we finally succeeded.
WOLFF DOBSON: If you keep slamming your hand in the car
door, eventually it feels great to stop.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Well, this was, I guess, a different era
of gaming when we're all sitting together in front of a
television, five of us playing and sharing the controllers
and passing it around and trying and trying again.
So maybe it's more the time I had with my friends.
But I will always remember the music and the graphics.
And when you think you've beaten him, he does his death
animation and then re-spawns in an even tougher mode.
COLT MCANIS: Multi-stage boss.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, final, final, final form.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Just the strategy in that was so
difficult because you needed a white mage to constantly be
healing and reviving people, and then hoping that your turn
to get an attack comes before--
because he had a one-hit attack.
If he attacked one of your characters,
they were just dead.
It didn't matter how many hit points you had.
So you constantly had to be reviving them and getting the
timing right so you get in one hit before you're killed.
It was awesome.
COLT MCANIS: I like your strategy.
For me, so many to pick from.
One of the most memorable, I have to say, I ever had was
actually Super Mario RPG.
This was actually-- so I had missed the RPG genre until
Super Mario RPG and loved it, absolutely fell
in love with it.
There was one boss fight, and it wasn't really a boss.
It was actually just one of the monsters--
the NPCs in the game--
I don't know if you remember this, but in Monster Town,
there was a specific door that you could open that would
actually go, and you could fight a little dude that was
only like 8 pixels tall.
His name was Jinx, and he was a martial arts dojo.
And I remember this fight more than anything else because I
could beat everyone else in the game.
I actually beat the game, beat the end boss-- the sword
dude-- came back, and still couldn't beat this guy.
I actually spent more time trying to beat him, leveling
up and trying to figure him out, then I did the rest of
the game entirely.
That stuck out to me because it was an entire summer.
Like you said, it was just an entire summer of trying to
figure out this guy's patterns.
And I learned more about how to play the game fighting that
one guy than the rest of the game.
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, I'm going to give my--
WOLFF DOBSON: What about you?
TODD KERPELMAN: --two quick ones, which are the giant fish
in the lake in Resident Evil 4.
That was a good fight.
TODD KERPELMAN: That was a good fight.
It was just--
WOLFF DOBSON: That whole game is really interesting.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That game is so good.
TODD KERPELMAN: That was a good game.
Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of good boss fights in that.
WOLFF DOBSON: With the Wii controls, too, it was
something else.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I played it on the GameCube, and then I got
it again on the Wii.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, on the Wii, it's just amazing.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: I wasn't a huge fan of Resident Evil
until Resident Evil 4, and that just completely--
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh, I spend quality time
with Resident Evil.
TODD KERPELMAN: And that was like the very first boss fight
that you really had in that game, and it just--
It was a thrill ride.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Actually, I think the first one is the mob
in that city.
That took me--
like in that rural town, that was really hard.

TODD KERPELMAN: That felt like a movie.
That felt like movie pacing, where it's like--
I don't know if you remember the remake of Dawn of the Dead
where you've got that crazy sequence at the beginning
where Sarah Polley is trying to get away from her household
and finally ends up crashing in a ditch.
And you realize you've been tense the whole time, and then
the opening credits come up.
It was kind of that feeling with Resident Evil 4.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yes, it was.
WOLFF DOBSON: All right, so two.
Second boss.
Oh, was that your--
The second boss.
I'll just-- real quick.
This is this somewhat obscure game called Warning Forever.
It was a Windows freeware game that was released
several years ago.
I really want somebody out there to do a remake.
I will buy it.
So you got one customer.
COLT MCANIS: Kickstarter project there.
TODD KERPELMAN: That would be fantastic.
WOLFF DOBSON: Warning Forever?
TODD KERPELMAN: The entire game was just fighting.
It was--
TODD KERPELMAN: --a little spaceship battle.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Freeware 2D fixed.
TODD KERPELMAN: The entire game was fighting just these
giant, giant boss spaceships.
And every time you defeated one, the game would
algorithmically determine, oh, OK, you spent your time
attacking this way, and you got hit more often by this
weapon, and would evolve and dynamically create another
boss monster for you.
WOLFF DOBSON: It's a game that hates you even more.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So the game looks a lot like
Life Force or Gradius.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, it's that kind of Life Force,
Gradius kind of theme.
WOLFF DOBSON: It's a bullet hell.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Oh, great games.
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh, but I'm going to go anyway.
WOLFF DOBSON: My favorite boss battle is from Pathways into
Darkness, the giant blue worm that comes after you.
You walk through this maze and it takes forever.
And you go and you go and you go, and then the guy is there.
And all the way through, you're picking up M16 ammo.
And it's a survival horror thing.
So he's like, I have so much ammo.
Oh, this is so good.
It was like the first survival horror game I'd ever played
because it's back on the Mac.
Bungie, it's one of their very first games.
Get up there, and you're like, woo, [GASP]
And so you start loading your M16 and you're stepping
backwards because it's going at the same rate that you can
walk backwards.
And you end up walking backwards for what felt like
an hour, but probably is more like about 2 minutes, backing
up through the maze, unloading everything, and then running
out of M16.
And now you're back into your regular ammo, which you were
saving for this thing.
And you're doing all that, and then you're eventually
stabbing with your knife.
And it dies like right as you get out of the maze.
It's beautiful.
And it actually goes to what the role of AI in games is in
the first place.
And to me, it's always to lose, but at the last minute.
And this was our organizing principle when
we were doing AI.
It's like it wants to push you, but then, aargh.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So was it actually set up so that--
WOLFF DOBSON: Absolutely.
They knew exactly how many bullets that you had, and they
knew how strong to make it.
They knew what to make the thing.
And then actually, when I was playing a Resident Evil game,
there was a--
it was Resident Evil maybe Code--
I can't remember.
And at one point, you switch characters and you have to go
through this thing.
And Resident Evil has those boxes that you put stuff in,
and then it appears someplace else.
It's like the uniform box.
And so I was like, oh, this other guy's got this really
tough thing.
So I took my regular character and filled the box with
All she had was a pistol and three bullets.
And then that character went off, and then I went to the
character, and he had this difficult quest,
and he comes back.
And then he meets up with her and gives her the antidote.
And then all of a sudden, a boss battle starts.
And he is separated.
And I was like, oh god, I only have three bullets.
But the guys at Capcom had predicted that.
And sure enough, I went bang, bang, bang, and the guy died.
And I was like, oh, I see.
It has as many hit points as I have bullets.
I win!
And I had all this extra shotgun--
COLT MCANIS: I want some of those bullets in every game.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yes, exactly.
All right.
So anyway, let's keep going.
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, we're going to keep going.
Next question.
Favorite setting, as in like fantasy world, not like oh,
I'm going to configure the anti-alias thing.
That you feel like is--
WOLFF DOBSON: My favorite setting is
the anti-alias thing.
TODD KERPELMAN: The land of anti-alias.
WOLFF DOBSON: Is it favorite setting, or is it favorite
least used setting?
TODD KERPELMAN: Favorite setting that you feel is
underutilized, that you'd like to see more of.
WOLFF DOBSON: Are we looking at me?
JIMMY: Your mike needs to be adjusted.
Fix your mike.
We're taking a break for technical difficulties.
You guys--
COLT MCANIS: Are we paused or are we live?
TODD KERPELMAN: Why don't you go while we're--
So I really think that fantasy is overdone.
I know it's probably the most popular genre
that's out there today.
I think like 70% of all games are actually fantasy.
People get it.
People understand it.
But to me, it's just way overdone.
I know what a paladin is, I know what a cleric is, give me
something cooler.
To be honest, I love the slapstick style of things like
Super Mario Bros.
I know that's not a specific genre like an art style, but
that sort of slapstick environment where the
developer is not even taking themselves
seriously in a lot of cases.
Like I'm an Italian plumber, I'm hopping on evil mushrooms,
and then I'm going inside of pipes to collect coins.
Like what is that?
Who even--
so I really love those crazy slapstick games.
COLT MCANIS: Yeah, I've never been to Italy.
WOLFF DOBSON: I apologize to our abroad Italian viewers.
Did you--
TODD KERPELMAN: Oh, I forgot to set the timer.
WOLFF DOBSON: Did you ever play the Grasshopper games
like No More Heroes and No More Heroes 2?
COLT MCANIS: Oh yeah, yeah.
WOLFF DOBSON: Those are very slapstick.
WOLFF DOBSON: I find them very loose technically, and so I
get frustrated.
This is the quality over everything.
I get frustrated by the game play when it's like--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yes, the aesthetic of those games is so
No More Heroes was so weird, like so much of that game was
mowing lawns.
WOLFF DOBSON: It was a strange, strange game.
COLT MCANIS: Well, you can't be a hero while
you're mowing a lawn.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: You got to earn some money.
COLT MCANIS: Yeah, but I really like that.
I feel that we're missing that in the modern area.
We've got like the Plants vs. Zombies styles, which kind of
takes itself seriously, but doesn't.
And I feel that's a great setting that we need more of.
TODD KERPELMAN: More sort of humor, not like
maybe explicit humor?
COLT MCANIS: I'm sorry, game developers take themselves way
too seriously.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, you don't think every game should be
brown and with light blue.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Don't forget the crates.
COLT MCANIS: Crates, post-processing effects.
COLT MCANIS: It makes it look real.
WOLFF DOBSON: Time to crate.
You know about that measure.
It was every game is rated on the number of seconds until
the first crate appears.
WOLFF DOBSON: I've even seen slapstick games put a crate
just in the middle of nowhere.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Doesn't Quake II start with crate?
Doom starts with crates.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, Doom, the very first thing--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Every hit game starts with crates.
COLT MCANIS: There's a website that ranks all
these, isn't there?
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, exactly.
This is number of seconds to crate.
TODD KERPELMAN: That's what we're talking about, number of
seconds until you see a crate in the game.
COLT MCANIS: I talked too long, who's next?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: What's the question?
COLT MCANIS: We're talking about crates.
TODD KERPELMAN: Underutilized settings.
WOLFF DOBSON: I think underutilized settings,

COLT MCANIS: We need more
warehouses and parking garages.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Spooky mansions, warehouses.
TODD KERPELMAN: That's good.
I was going to say I didn't think I liked Westerns until I
played Red Dead Redemption.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That's a great game.
TODD KERPELMAN: The setting is good.
I was thinking about it on the way over, that probably you
couldn't have a good Western game until this generation of
hardware, just because the worlds are so open and you
don't have to worry about cutting off the viewer's view
every 20 feet.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, and like foliage.
Let's be honest, getting plants looking good is a very
recent phenomenon.
COLT MCANIS: Wait, isn't--
It's a Western.
It's supposed to be in the desert.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, no, but--
WOLFF DOBSON: But there are plants.
COLT MCANIS: There are some plants.
I will allow that.
WOLFF DOBSON: Westerns don't take place in the Sahara.
TODD KERPELMAN: I probably spent 10 hours collecting
flowers in Red Dead Redemption.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, that was the thing.
I mean, the design goal of that is to have you look at
all the plants, right?
I mean, every game has these quests where it's like, look
at the terrain very carefully because we paid hundreds of
thousands of dollars to mark up all these things.
COLT MCANIS: Some graphics programmer's like, no, no, no.
This is a quest.
WOLFF DOBSON: You're going to look at my frickin' fountain.
That's what I'm saying.
Do you know how long that took?
TODD KERPELMAN: But the problem with that is I end up
looking at the mini-map the whole time.
Because I think when those icons started showing up.
WOLFF DOBSON: See, that's a whole gamer rant there.
It's like, mini-map, not mini-map.
Did you see The Getaway, where they were going to get rid of
the mini-map?
SCEE did The Getaway, which is this game.
One of the design goals of the game was there was going to be
no mini-map.
WOLFF DOBSON: Because it was an open world game.
WOLFF DOBSON: They had rigged all of London.
All right, underused--
No, it's very overused.
And actually, my favorite setting ever for a video game
was the inside of the Arc de Triomphe in Onimusha 3.
COLT MCANIS: Oh wow, yeah.
WOLFF DOBSON: That was awesome.
But anyway, yeah, they have no mini-map.
But they still had to tell you where to drive.
And so what happens is in the middle of these crazy car
chases, your guy will signal.
And he'll be, oh, I should turn right.
COLT MCANIS: Brilliant.
TODD KERPELMAN: That is pretty smart.
WOLFF DOBSON: It was cool at the beginning because you
really have this intense kind of movie-like experience.
But after a while, it got ludicrous.
You're like, why am I signaling?
I'm being chased by like 70 cops.
And I'm like, you know what I need to do, I need to signal.
COLT MCANIS: Well, you have to obey the law.
You don't want to get pulled over.
TODD KERPELMAN: You should signal one way and then turn
the other direction.
TODD KERPELMAN: And that'll throw them off.
WOLFF DOBSON: You know, if we had better AI, we'd be able to
do stuff like this.
What's our next topic?
COLT MCANIS: Did John go?
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, I was going to say, why don't we
have John go.
And we are running low on time.
I'm going to save this next one because it's a big topic,
probably for next time.
That'll be like a teaser.
Two weeks from now.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Something suburban North America.
It's a very underutilized setting for a game.
WOLFF DOBSON: Have you been to the suburbs?
TODD KERPELMAN: Suburban North America.
WOLFF DOBSON: Nothing happens.
COLT MCANIS: You mean like Mars Attacks! style?
Paperboy type stuff?
WOLFF DOBSON: Martians Ate My Neighbors or whatever.
What was it?
Zombies Ate My Neighbors?
COLT MCANIS: Zombies Ate My Neighbors.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, Zombies Ate My Neighbors,
that kind of setting.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, I actually think realistic settings are
not-- or modern time settings, they're difficult, because you
end up with uncanny valley problems and the "why is there
a crate in my wife's bedroom?" kind of questions.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Time to crates.
COLT MCANIS: That is a question.
WOLFF DOBSON: Definitely a little
weird there or something.
COLT MCANIS: I thought Modern Warfare 2 did it well.
They had an urban map, which was effectively just a shooter
on rails that I really wish they could've explored more of
the ecosystem there.
But I thought they did it really well.
They had an urban environment.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, when people do it, and I mean,
Grand Theft Auto IV, obviously, you feel when
you're driving through parts of it, you're like, my friend
lives right here.
But, in general, I think it's a way to bring in players who
aren't science fiction and fantasy fans and be like, this
is something you know, and now I'm going to do something
weird to it to make it interesting for you.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: But like Zombies Ate My Neighbors, or
whatever that game was called, it could be in that suburban
setting, and then sci-fi happens.
COLT MCANIS: Can you mix a sci-fi and a zombie?
WOLFF DOBSON: Sci-fi zombies?
Haven't you watched any of the Resident Evil movies?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: That's sci-zombies.
COLT MCANIS: That's zombieized.
COLT MCANIS: Serenity?
Really Fair enough.
Fair enough.
That's one.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, I guess they were.
They were pretty much zombies.
WOLFF DOBSON: Sci-fi zombies.
TODD KERPELMAN: There you go.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: There's rules, though, and you
just don't do it.
COLT MCANIS: Well, yeah.
Like vampires shouldn't sparkle.
Let's just get that out of the way right now.
Make sure everyone knows where I stand on this issue.
WOLFF DOBSON: If you are a viewer and you do believe
vampires should sparkle, I think you need
to comment on that.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Let us know.
I had some follow-up questions for next episode.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, that sounds good.
We didn't have really any questions this time.
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh, that's OK.
TODD KERPELMAN: Maybe because we didn't answer most of them
from last time.
Next time--
WOLFF DOBSON: Learn helplessness.
TODD KERPELMAN: I'd like you to fill out some questions--
WOLFF DOBSON: Wait, wait.
Jimmy, we have a question?
Jimmy, can we go to the live feed of the question?
What do we got?
He's got to type faster.
Jimmy, we need that on this monitor.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: We got a question.
WOLFF DOBSON: We have a question!
COLT MCANIS: Fantastic.
TODD KERPELMAN: "Where do you see gaming going with
technology like Hangouts?" I don't know if there's anyone
here that really knows Hangouts.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, who works on Hangouts?
Oh, oh.
COLT MCANIS: That guy.
WOLFF DOBSON: I think the--
TODD KERPELMAN: Good question.
Thank you, by the way.
WOLFF DOBSON: There are a lot of interesting things to do
with Hangouts.
I think Hangouts are--
one of the things I say a lot when we talk about Hangouts is
that Hangouts are a room where you've
gathered a bunch of people.
And then Hangout apps are the kitchen table that they're all
sitting around.
It's the thing that they're all looking at and sharing.
And you were talking about the couch
experience with your friends.
I think having a strict "watch me play" kind of thing might
not be as much fun if it's a little screen and you're going
to look away kind of thing.
But I think a situation in which we're sharing an
experience together and we can talk to each other.
And I actually think that games--
I would love it if somebody--
actually, we had that at a hackathon.
Somebody had the OpenGL Quake running in a Hangout.
They demoed it at the University of Washington, a
hackathon we had in January.
They had that.
It was really neat.
I did find my attention tended to focus on the shooting part
and not nearly as much on the--
COLT MCANIS: Other people part.
WOLFF DOBSON: On the people, people's heads.
So I think you're going to have to bring
the faces into the--
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Just put them on the crates.
So every crate you pass by will just have--
TODD KERPELMAN: Have someone's face on it.
COLT MCANIS: So was this--
this was that each person had their own instance of Quake--
WOLFF DOBSON: They were all playing Quake together.
WOLFF DOBSON: But they had the lineup of--
COLT MCANIS: And this is--
I just want to make sure because this is different than
what you would standardly see, which is like, hey, we're all
in a Hangout, and we all see the same thing.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah that's the YouTube watching
somebody else play.
WOLFF DOBSON: Like there's the guy who plays all the modern
games and people shout stuff at him.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Now what about tabletop games?
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh, well, there's Tabletop Forge, which
we've talked about before on the show.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Because I'm pretty sure some Facebook
friends of mine play D&D--
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh god, yeah.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: --over Hangouts.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, and see, that's a situation in which
the people matter a lot in that situation.
And I think that's what makes Hangout games fun.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Yeah, because that was really about like--
COLT MCANIS: And shouldn't they be your Google+ friends?
They are, yeah.
I was just trying to figure out--
Did I have to list some other social network?
TODD KERPELMAN: I would like to see parlor games.
I'd like to see more like charades.
I feel like you can't do charades in any other
TODD KERPELMAN: --beyond, yeah.
Or even a game like Balderdash, which in theory--
so it's the game where you have this word that no one
really knows.
Everyone writes definitions for it and try and guess which
one's real.
I feel like if I were just doing that in a chat room,
everyone would be going off to Google and looking up the
word, and then it wouldn't be any fun.
I feel like in a Hangout, the fact that you can see other
people's faces, and you know who they are, and you're all
playing together, somehow I think would add that extra
peer pressure to actually play by the rules and play well.
WOLFF DOBSON: Well, I mean, that's why RPGs work, that
we're all in a shared experience together and we're
going to enforce the rules on each other, although it's
harder to cheat on dice rolls using Tabletop Forge because
actually everyone sees the roll.
COLT MCANIS: So quick question here.
So there's two separate discrete versions right now
that we're talking about, which is the YouTube style
"watch me play," and then everyone
has their own version.
Can you do both with the current Hangout APIs?
Like it would be fantastic.
I see a scenario here where we're playing poker or
something, and we have this shared environment
that we can all see.
But then we each have our own little view that we can
manipulate before it goes in, right?
Like I've got my view of the ecosystem.
I've got my cards in my hand that I can see.
But yet you can see on this larger screen what everyone
else has written.
WOLFF DOBSON: Oh no, we do that already.
So you can actually get two separate feeds.
TODD KERPELMAN: It's really just one feed.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, it's one feed.
But you're--
well, OK.
You can share your screen, which is going to give you
some view of what it is that you're seeing on your desktop
right then.
But games like--
well, games like WarLight there's a shared map.
But you see what you see through fog of war, and other
people see what they see through fog of war.
So we have that.
And if someone decided to haul out and make a bridge game,
then that would be a great thing where you have your
cards yourself.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: My grandmother would love it.
COLT MCANIS: But would your grandma haul out and make it?
WOLFF DOBSON: Is she going to sit down?
Hack that out?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: No, it's hard enough to get her to turn on
the computer.
WOLFF DOBSON: And actually, interestingly, you can run two
Hangout apps at once if you really wanted to have side
chat like that.
Because you can run the extension on the side--
COLT MCANIS: That would be great for Catan.

WOLFF DOBSON: But anyway, yeah.
Like I said, games where people are important I think
are games where Hangouts are going to be exciting.
And I mean, I think lots of games
are exciting in Hangouts.
Those are the games I'm most excited about.
COLT MCANIS: Very cool.
COLT MCANIS: Jimmy, do we have any more on the live feed?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Any questions from Jimmy?
Jimmy's just an intern.
It's OK.
TODD KERPELMAN: So we are just about out of time.
Like I said, we'll save this topic for next time.
COLT MCANIS: Do you want to announce it?
TODD KERPELMAN: No, no, we'll keep it a secret.
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: Well, that might lead to questions.
TODD KERPELMAN: Oh, that's true.
All right, yeah.
WOLFF DOBSON: Why don't you announce the topic?
TODD KERPELMAN: We are going to be
talking about app discovery.
WOLFF DOBSON: App discovery?
TODD KERPELMAN: App discovery.
WOLFF DOBSON: What kinds of apps are we discovering?
TODD KERPELMAN: Well, so this kind of started with a article
that you had sent me about the game 10000000, spelled one,
zero, zero, zero, zero.
WOLFF DOBSON: Yeah, with no commas, which meant I had no
idea how many zeroes were on it.
WOLFF DOBSON: Which makes it very difficult to find on
search, which--
TODD KERPELMAN: Which sort of--
WOLFF DOBSON: Although, not actually that hard because you
type "100," or a random number of zeroes, and then type
"game," and then it will say, "do you mean "10000000"?
COLT MCANIS: I love Google sometimes.
TODD KERPELMAN: We're smart like that.
WOLFF DOBSON: I misspelled "ermahgern." Because I was
looking for the meme, and it said "do you mean "ermahgern"?
JOHN MCCUTCHAN: So a picture of the meme?
No, no.
It just said, "do you mean "ermahgern"?
And I was like, yes, yes, I do.
TODD KERPELMAN: All right, we're out of time.
Next week, app discovery.
We'll give you more background next time.
WOLFF DOBSON: Keep those cards and letters coming in.
TODD KERPELMAN: Yeah, keep the questions coming and--
COLT MCANIS: Jimmy, get that out of your mouth.
TODD KERPELMAN: Jimmy's so--
TODD KERPELMAN: Jimmy is irrepressible.
That's what he is.
COLT MCANIS: He's chewing on our--
If you get shocked again, it's on you.
All right, that's all for us?
TODD KERPELMAN: That's all for us.
Hopefully, they're fading us out.
And we can continue to do that thing where we chat while
they're fading out.
COLT MCANIS: Well, that's an actual valid thing.