Diversity Conversation with Douglas Rushkoff

(music)
>> HI, MY NAME IS LAURA CAPRARA,
AND I AM THE OWNER AND FOUNDER OF STELLA FLY SOCIAL MEDIA,
HERE IN WEST MICHIGAN.
AND TODAY, WE ARE JOINED BY THE FABULOUS DOUGLAS RUSHKOFF,
AUTHOR OF "PROGRAM OR BE PROGRAMMED."
SO, WELCOME TO GRAND RAPIDS. >> HI-- GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> THANK YOU.
UM, WHY DON'T WE JUST START OUT BY ASKING YOU,
YOU KNOW, HOW YOU STARTED,
HOW YOU GOT INTERESTED IN, YOU KNOW, THE INTERNET AND COMPUTERS
AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO. >> WELL, HONESTLY,
IT WAS IN 6th OR 7th GRADE,
THEY SOMEHOW GOT COMPUTERS IN OUR SCHOOL--
THIS WAS IN THE '70s--
AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE, LIKE, COMPUTERS
BUT THEY HAD THESE THINGS CALLED TERMINALS,
WHICH WERE SORT OF LIKE A TYPEWRITER WITH A ROLL OF PAPER IN IT,
AND THEY HAD A WIRE AND IT HOOKED IT UP TO SOME COMPUTER
SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD...
AND, UH-- OR IN THE BUILDING, PROBABLY.
AND THEY TAUGHT US SOME-- SOME KIDS IN THE LITTLE CLUB--
SOME REAL BASIC COMPUTER COMMANDS,
AND AT THAT POINT, I SAW THAT YOU WOULD SAVE COMPUTER FILES,
AND YOU'D EITHER SAVE THEM AS LIKE A "READ ONLY" FILE
THAT PEOPLE COULD READ AND COULDN'T TOUCH,
OR "READ WRITE” FILE THAT PEOPLE COULD READ AND CHANGE, OR A "NO READ AT ALL"--
THAT NO ONE'S ALLOWED TO SEE IT BUT YOU.
AND I WENT HOME THAT DAY AND I WAS JUST THINKING,
"GOSH, HOW MUCH OF THE REST OF THE WORLD IS SORT OF 'READ,'
"'READ ONLY,' OR 'READ WRITE'?"
AND I WAS A T.V. KID-- YOU KNOW, LIKE A “BRADY” KID.
SO, I WAS LOOKING AT TELEVISION THAT AFTERNOON AND I THOUGHT,
"WELL, THIS IS A WEIRD THING.
"THIS IS TELEVISION BUT I'M ONLY ALLOWED TO WATCH THIS--
"I'M NOT ALLOWED TO CHANGE THIS.
"THERE'S NO INPUT, THERE IS NO--"
BUT IT'S THIS OTHER MEDIUM THAT'S COMING UP--
THIS COMPUTER WOULD LET ME ACTUALLY CHANGE WHAT'S THERE,
SO I STARTED LOOKING AT THE WHOLE WORLD IN TERMS OF PROGRAMS,
AND I DIDN'T EVER GET GOOD AT PROGRAMMING
BUT I WAS KIND OF PROFOUNDLY AFFECTED BY THAT,
THE WAY I IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WOULD BE AFFECTED TAKING,
LIKE, A PSYCHEDELIC FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AND YOU LOOK AT THE WORLD AND IT'S ALL LIKE,
“OH, MY GOSH, IT'S ALL UP FOR GRABS!"
YOU KNOW, I WENT-- I WAS A NEW YORKER.
I WENT OUT IN THE NEW YORK CITY STREETS AND LOOKED AT THE GRID PATTERN
OF NEW YORK CITY AND I SAID, "THIS IS A GRID!
"IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING.
"I ALWAYS THOUGHT ‘GRID CITY’ MEANT ’GRID,’
"BUT THERE ARE THESE OTHER CITIES THAT THEY DON'T DO ON GRID,
"AND WHO CHOOSES THAT?
"AND WHEN DOES IT GET CHOSEN?
"AND HOW DOES IT GET LOCKED DOWN?"
SO FOR ME, THIS JOURNEY OF THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS
HAS BEEN ABOUT LOOKING AT
"WHAT IN OUR WORLD IS A GENUINE PRE-EXISTING CONDITION OF NATURE
"AND WHAT IS A PROGRAM?
"WHAT HAS BEEN PUT HERE?"
YOU KNOW, AND I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT ALL DIFFERENT MEDIA, YOU KNOW,
FROM, YOU KNOW, TELEVISION AND COMPUTERS AND EVEN THE PRINTING PRESS--
I'VE LOOKED AT JUDAISM AND I'VE LOOKED AT BUSINESS
AND CORPORATISM AND CURRENCY,
AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT SYSTEMS TO SEE, YOU KNOW,
WHAT IS SET IN STONE AND WHAT'S UP FOR DISCUSSION?
AND IF IT'S NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION, WHY ISN'T IT?
IS IT BEING LOCKED DOWN BY SOME NEFARIOUS PEOPLE
WHO DON'T WANT US TALKING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE MINUTE WE DO,
WE'RE GONNA WANT TO CHANGE THINGS OR WHAT?
SO, I'VE BEEN WRITING ALL THESE BOOKS AND TALKING
AND DOING DOCUMENTARIES AND DIFFERENT THINGS, YOU KNOW,
ALL ABOUT THIS SORT OF MAIN ISSUE ABOUT WHAT IN OUR REALITY
IS OPEN SOURCE AND WHAT ISN'T, AND WHY?
>> AND WITH THE OPEN SOURCE, UM, YOU'RE A BIG FAN OF OPEN SOURCE...
A BIG PROPONENT OF OPEN SOURCE?
>> YEAH, OR AT LEAST TO HAVE A GOOD REASON WHY SOMETHING'S NOT, SURE.
>> RIGHT-- OH, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THAT, UM,
IF EVERYTHING WERE TO BE OPEN SOURCE,
HOW THAT WOULD AFFECT COMPETITION BETWEEN BUSINESSES.
>> WELL, IN SOME SENSE,
EVERYTHING IS OPEN SOURCE. >> MMM-HMM.
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST WHETHER IT'S LOCKED DOWN OR NOT.
(laughing) I MEAN, SO, YOU LOOK AT THINGS
THAT WE DECIDE AREN'T OPEN SOURCE--
CHINA DOESN'T RESPECT THAT IT'S NOT, OR IRAN WON'T RESPECT THAT IT'S NOT,
SO EVEN IF WE LOCK THINGS DOWN AND WE SAY, "OH, WELL, YOU KNOW,
"GENETIC ENGINEERING IS TOO DANGEROUS.
"WE SHOULD JUST HAVE THIS DONE
"IN SPECIAL SCIENTIFIC LABS THAT ARE APPROVED."
OTHER COUNTRIES-- IN NORTH KOREA OR WHEREVER--
WELL, NOT THAT THEY'RE DOING THAT GREAT GENETIC RESEARCH THERE RIGHT NOW,
BUT ANYWHERE ELSE CAN DO IT.
UM, I THINK OPEN SOURCE, ULTIMATELY, IS GOOD FOR COMPETITION.
THAT'S WHY BIG COMPANIES DON'T WANT IT.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE A COMPANY LIKE MICROSOFT,
WHICH AT ONE POINT, SORT OF OWNED THE OPERATING SYSTEM UNIVERSE,
THEY DON'T WANT OPERATING SYSTEMS TO BE OPEN SOURCE
'CAUSE THEN ANYBODY CAN TINKER WITH IT AND MAKE IT BETTER
AND, THEN, WHAT DOES MICROSOFT STILL OWN?
SO, YOU KNOW, AN OPEN-SOURCE UNIVERSE WOULD BE, IN SOME WAYS,
THE TRUE LIBERTARIAN UNIVERSE.
THAT'S WHERE EVERYBODY CAN DO ANYTHING AND KEEP IMPROVING,
AND YOU'RE JUST GONNA KEEP CHANGING WHO PROVIDES YOU WITH STUFF
IN ORDER TO GO TO THE ONE WHO’S, YOU KNOW, GOT THE MOST COMPETITIVE ANSWER.
>> DO YOU HAVE, IN YOUR RESOURCES, THE PERSON THAT YOU THINK IS,
YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, IF THINGS ARE OPEN SOURCE,
THEN ANYBODY CAN MAKE THEM BETTER--
AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE'S AN ASSUMPTION
THAT, YOU KNOW, THOSE PEOPLE ARE AT APPLE OR MICROSOFT OR EVEN AT FACEBOOK.
WHO DO YOU THINK ARE, LIKE, THE PIONEERS ON THOSE TYPES OF THINGS,
THAT ARE REALLY GOOD AT IT, THOSE THAT ARE MAKING BIG CHANGES?
>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW POPULAR THEY ARE HERE,
BUT YOU KNOW, I LOOK AT-- I DRAW A LOT OF INSPIRATION FROM THE "OCCUPIERS."
YOU KNOW, I KNOW THEY'RE NOT AT A COMPANY BUT...
THE "OCCUPIERS" SORT OF SAID, "WELL, WAIT A MINUTE.
"IF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND ALL OF THIS STUFF IS BANKRUPT
"AND NONE OF THIS STUFF WORKS, WHAT IF WE,
"RATHER THAN TRYING TO WORK THROUGH THIS CONVOLUTED SYSTEM
"AND RAISE MONEY TO BLAH-BLAH-BLAH, WHAT IF WE JUST SAY,
"'THINGS ARE CHANGING NOW, AS OF THIS MOMENT'?"
IN OTHER WORDS, THE BEAUTY TO ME OF THAT WHOLE WORD "OCCUPY"
IS THAT RATHER THAN WORKING TOWARDS CHANGE--
SOME, YOU KNOW, "EYE ON THE PRIZE,"
YOU KNOW, CLIMACTIC CAMPAIGN TOWARDS JUSTICE--
UM, YOU KNOW, THERE'S VERY GREAT 1960s, '70s-STYLE OF POLITICAL ACTIVISM,
THEY JUST SAY, "WHAT IF WE JUST OCCUPY THE REALITY
"THAT WE'RE LIVING IN RIGHT NOW,
"IN THE WAY THAT WE THINK IS APPROPRIATE."
SO, YOU LOOK AT THE KINDS OF INNOVATIONS THAT THEY CAME UP WITH,
WHETHER THEY BORROWED FROM THE ANCIENT GREEKS
AND DID THEIR GENERAL ASSEMBLY,
WHERE THEY CAN DRAW CONSENSUS BETWEEN HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE AT ONCE,
OR BREAK INTO WORKING GROUPS,
OR CREATE KIND OF A TRUSTED NETWORK OF DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THINK THE OCCUPATION OR "OCCUPY" IS OVER--
YOU KNOW, I JUST CAME FROM HURRICANE-DEVASTATED NEW YORK,
WHERE "OCCUPY SANDY" WAS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY
OF GETTING RELIEF AND INFORMATION.
YOU KNOW, OR NOW THEY'RE DOING "OCCUPY DEBT,"
WHERE THEY'RE BUYING, YOU KNOW, PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR--
THE SAME WAY THAT CREDIT COMPANIES BUY CREDIT OF OTHER PEOPLE
AND THEN COLLECT ON IT-- THEY'RE BUYING DEBT AND RELIEVING IT,
(laughing) WHICH IS JUST SORTA CONFOUNDING EVERYBODY.
SO, IF YOU BUY-- YOU KNOW, IF YOU SPEND $5
AND BUY SOMEONE'S $250 OF SOMEBODY'S DEBT,
AND THEN YOU GO, "OKAY, RATHER THAN COLLECTING ON IT, JUST-- IT'S GONE."
YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO PEOPLE WITH MEDICAL BILLS AND STUDENT DEBT--
IT JUST ERASES IT. (laughing)
SO, IT'S KIND OF, UH... I THINK THEY'RE VERY INNOVATIVE AND JUST--
IN THEIR... KIND OF PRACTICAL,
“NO HEROES” KIND OF APPROACH
TO JUST SOLVING SOCIAL PROBLEMS.
>> HOW DO THEY GET THEIR MESSAGE OUT THERE?
>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK--
THE INTERESTING THING IS,
I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TO GET THEIR MESSAGE "OUT THERE."
YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY JUST DO.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S-- THE FUNNY THING IS THEY DID THE "OCCUPY,"
THEY WERE IN ZUCCOTTI PARK IN NEW YORK AND ALL THESE OTHER PLACES,
AND THE MEDIA CAME, AND THEY WERE ALL PUTTING THE MICS IN FRONT
AND SAYING, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?
"WHAT ARE YOU DEMANDING?"
AND THEY'RE LIKE, "WELL, THAT'S-- WE DON'T REALLY DEMANDING--
"WE'RE NOT-- THAT'S NOT WHAT--"
AND THE MEDIA SAYS, "AH, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
"THEY DON'T KNOW--"
AND , UM, NO-- IT'S JUST THAT THEIR...
BRAND OR STYLE OF SOCIAL ACTIVISM WASN'T CONSONANT WITH,
YOU KNOW, THE NINE-SECOND SOUND-BITE REQUIREMENT OF C.N.N.
SO, IT'S LIKE, "OH, IF YOU CAN'T SAY IT IN NINE SECONDS,
"THEN THERE'S NOTHING THERE.
AND NO, IT TURNS OUT-- NO, IF YOU CAN'T SAY IT IN NINE SECONDS,
IT'S BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING THERE. >> MMM-HMM.
>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF YOU CAN SAY IN NINE SECONDS
THAT DOESN'T END UP LEADING TO ANYTHING.
YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES.
LOOK AT HOW THAT-- AT HOW THAT WORKS. >> MMM-HMM.
WELL, AND THE REASON I ASK THAT IS BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, WE HAD A VERY SMALL "OCCUPY" MOVEMENT IN GRAND RAPIDS,
AND THEN, THEY'D SHOW UP IF IT WAS WARM OUT.
UM, SO, I'M WONDERING--
I MEAN, IT OBVIOUSLY HAS, UM, AFFECTED YOU
AND YOU FIND IT EFFECTIVE
AND YOU ARE IMPRESSED BY THAT IN NEW YORK,
SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY NOT FEEL
THAT THEY NEED TO SPREAD THEIR MESSAGE,
BUT HOW COULD THEY TEACH OTHER CITIES
TO HAVE THAT SAME EFFECTIVENESS WITHOUT LIVING IN NEW YORK?
>> I MEAN, YOU MODEL IT RATHER THAN BROADCAST IT.
I MEAN, THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF THE INTERNET, AS A MEDIUM, VERSUS TELEVISION.
>> MMM-HMM. >> ON THE INTERNET, YOU CAN HAVE YOUR--
TO START ANYWAY-- YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE.
HOPEFULLY, IT LINKS OUT REALLY QUICKLY,
'CAUSE FACEBOOK IS KIND OF COLLAPSING
AS A MEANS OF DISSEMINATING INFORMATION FOR FREE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE WEBSITES--
THERE'S OF WEBSITES OF, YOU KNOW, OF JUST COLLECTING ALL THIS STUFF,
ALL THE DIFFERENT MODELS THAT DIFFERENT “OCCUPY” MOVEMENTS HAVE TRIED,
SO THAT PEOPLE CAN GO, "OH, LOOK, THEY DID THIS-- THAT WOULD WORK HERE,"
OR "THEY DID THAT-- THAT WOULD WORK OVER HERE."
YOU KNOW, THERE'S ‘WIKIS’ WHICH IS JUST KIND OF A WAY OF SHARING INFORMATION--
EVERYBODY CAN ADD ON TO IT.
UM, SO, THERE'S JUST LOTS OF REPOSITORIES OF EXPERIENCE
THAT CAN BE DISSEMINATED LATERALLY, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, THIS STYLE
WHERE WE, YOU KNOW, COME UP WITH SOMETHING AND THEN BROADCAST IT OUT, YOU KNOW?
IT'S JUST-- THIS IS IMPORTANT, TOO-- BUT THEY'RE DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, AND FOR ME, WHAT THEY'RE DOING,
JUST LIKE WHAT THE OPEN SOURCE AND COMPUTER MOVEMENT IS DOING
OR THE PERMACULTURE LAND MOVEMENT
AND ORGANIC FARMING AND ALL THAT,
IS THEY'RE REALLY...
I GUESS, GIVING CREDENCE TO WHAT THEORISTS THAT I LOOK UP TO,
GUYS LIKE BUCKMINSTER FULLER, WHO WAS A GREAT MATHEMATICIAN,
TECHNOLOGIST, AND THINKER, AND ARCHITECT,
YOU KNOW, IN THE ‘50s AND ‘60s--
HE WOULD ALWAYS SAY THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE FACING
AS A CIVILIZATION ARE NOT INTRINSIC TO OUR CIVILIZATION,
THEY'RE PROBLEMS OF DESIGN.
YOU KNOW, SO AS LONG AS WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT ALL OF THESE VARIOUS SYSTEMS
THAT WE'RE USING AND THAT THE WORLD WE’RE IN
HAS DESIGN ELEMENTS TO IT,
THEN WE CAN TAKE IT UPON OURSELVES TO REDESIGN THEM IN WAYS
THAT ACTUALLY WORK FOR PEOPLE RATHER THAN CRUSH THEM.
SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE DESIGN, SAY,
OF A CENTRAL BANK-DOMINATED CORPORATE CAPITALISM, RIGHT?
THAT'S NOT TO SAY CAPITALISM ISN'T GOOD
OR FREE TRADE ISN'T GOOD OR MARKETS AREN'T GOOD.
IT'S TO SAY THAT, "OKAY, WE'VE GOT THIS BANKING SYSTEM THAT REALLY DOMINATES
"HOW MONEY IS PRODUCED AND WHERE IT GOES.
"WE USE A KIND OF MONEY THAT HAS A REAL BIAS TOWARDS INTEREST
"AND PAYING UP TO THE PEOPLE WHO LENT IT AND ALL THAT."
YOU SAY, "WELL, WAIT A MINUTE...
"IS OUR ECONOMIC PROBLEM BECAUSE WE'RE TOO COMPETITIVE,
"BECAUSE BUSINESSES DON'T WORK, SO WE'RE NOT EMPLOYED ENOUGH,
"OR IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE DESIGN OF MONEY
"AND THE WAY OUR ECONOMY MOVES THAT IS HAMPERING OUR ABILITY
"TO MOVE TO THE NEXT STAGE?"
AND THAT'S-- A LOT OF MY WORK WAS ABOUT THAT,
LOOKING AT, "OKAY, WE'RE USING A 13th CENTURY
"PRINTING PRESS-ERA ECONOMIC OPERATING SYSTEM
"TO UNDERLIE A 21st CENTURY DIGITAL-ERA ECONOMY."
THEY DON'T WORK-- THEY'RE NOT COMPATIBLE.
THE O.S. IS BROKEN.
SO, WHO'S ALLOWED TO GO AND REDESIGN MONEY?
WHAT OTHER KINDS OF MONIES ARE THERE?
AND THAT'S WHEN YOU'VE GOT TO DO SOME HISTORY,
AND YOU SAY, "WELL, WHAT KINDS OF MONIES WERE THERE BEFORE THIS ONE
"WAS LEGALLY MADE THE ONLY ONE?
"AND HOW DID THOSE OTHER ONES WORK?"
AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THING--
THAT'S THE KIND OF APPROACH THAT HACKERS
AND OPEN SOURCE PEOPLE TEND TO HAVE MUCH MORE
THAN THOSE WHO JUST, YOU KNOW, WORK WITHIN SYSTEMS.
>> WOW, MY HEAD'S SWIMMING NOW.
THAT'S A LOT OF INFORMATION. >> BUT YEAH--
BUT IT'S WHY I DON'T LIKE TO SAY, "OH, I'M THIS DIGITAL GUY,"
OR "I'M A TECHNOLOGY--" ‘CAUSE I DON'T REALLY--
YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE IN PROGRAM BUT I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO IT.
YOU KNOW, I KNOW HOW TO DO IT ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT,
"OH, MY GOSH, IT OPENS THESE DOORS."
YOU KNOW, SO, I CAN--
NOW, I CAN SEE THAT IT'S LIKE, "WOW, WE CAN REPROGRAM ANYTHING,"
AND IF I CAN SHARE THAT INSIGHT, IF PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT THE SYSTEMS
THAT THEY'RE IN AND SAY, "OH, I DON'T HAVE TO BE A SLAVE TO THIS SYSTEM.
"I CAN ACTUALLY REWRITE THAT SYSTEM."
THAT'S CONSONANT WITH ALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION--
IT'S CONSONANT WITH THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN MYTH.
I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.
THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS OF A DEATH CULT IN EGYPT,
THEY ESCAPE, THEY GO TO THE DESERT AND THEY SAY, "OH, WAIT A MINUTE,
"THESE LAWS WE'VE BEEN FOLLOWING, WE CAN WRITE THEM OURSELVES.”
SO, MOSES GETS HIS FATHER-IN-LAW, JETHRO, AND THEY SIT DOWN
AND THEY SAY, "LET'S FIGURE OUT A NEW LEGAL SYSTEM
"THAT ACTUALLY WILL PROMOTE ETHICS AMONG PEOPLE."
SO, IT'S AS OLD AS OUR BIBLE, THIS INSIGHT.
AND WHEN WE FORGET IT, YOU KNOW, AFTER 300 OR 400 YEARS,
WE GOTTA JUST REVIVE IT AGAIN-- FREE OURSELVES OF WHATEVER IT IS,
YOU KNOW, KIND OF ENSLAVING OUR LITTLE BRAINS, AND OPEN IT UP AGAIN.
>> SO, I MEAN-- I SENSE, THEN, THAT YOU FEEL
THAT THERE IS A MOVEMENT HAPPENING.
I MEAN, IT-- ESPECIALLY WITH WHAT YOU'RE SEEING AT HOME.
AND DO YOU THINK-- I MEAN, WITHOUT GETTING TOO POLITICAL,
DO YOU THINK THAT THIS ELECTION, THIS LAST ELECTION,
SHOWED SOME INDICATIONS OF THESE "OLD THINGS NOT WORKING"
AND MORE PEOPLE WANTING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE IT WORK?
I MEAN, WHAT WAS YOUR-- >> I MEAN, IT WAS--
>> IT WAS VERY CONFUSING FOR ME, ALL OF IT.
>> IT WAS SO CONFUSING-- THE WHOLE THING WAS SO CONFUSING, BECAUSE...
I DON'T KNOW, OBAMA WAS SAYING THE THINGS I THOUGHT ROMNEY WAS GONNA SAY,
AND ROMNEY WAS SAYING THE THINGS THAT I THOUGHT OBAMA WAS GONNA SAY,
AND THEN I'M FIGURING NEITHER ONE IS SAYING THE THINGS THAT THEY MEAN
'CAUSE THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO APPEAL TO THESE OTHER PEOPLE.
AND SO, IT WAS JUST-- I WAS SO CONFUSED BY THE WHOLE THING.
UM... SO, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WAS A FAIR--
IT KIND OF WASN'T A FAIR FIGHT, ON A CERTAIN LEVEL.
ON SOME LEVEL, I WANNA SEE,
LIKE, YOU KNOW, DENNIS KUCINICH AGAINST,
YOU KNOW, AGAINST RAND OR SOMETHING,
YOU KNOW, OR WHAT WAS HIS NAME... THE RON PAUL.
>> RIGHT. >> YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE--
LET'S JUST REALLY-- LET'S JUST CUT LOOSE.
>> THROW IT ALL DOWN. >> LET'S JUST SEE--
AND THEN, TO HAVE THEM BOTH GO, "ALL RIGHT, LET'S DO IT TOGETHER,”
YOU KNOW AND FIGURE IT OUT.
OR JUST, LIKE, THE GREEN PARTY AGAINST THE LIBERTARIANS--
LET'S JUST REALLY, YOU KNOW, CUT LOOSE HERE.
UM, THERE’S SOME-- THE THING THAT GAVE ME HOPE
WAS THAT THERE WASN'T SOME AWFUL, TERRIBLE, CORRUPT
VOTER SUPPRESSION FRAUD THING.
THAT WE KIND OF MANAGED TO-- EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, POOR PEOPLE
HAD TO WAIT SEVEN HOURS AND RICH PEOPLE DIDN'T,
AT LEAST IT KIND OF STILL WORKED IN A WAY THAT WE CAN GO, "ALL RIGHT,
"WE GOTTA REALLY DEAL WITH THIS NOW."
UM, SO IT WASN'T-- THAT GAVE ME SOME HOPE.
AND THE FACT THAT IT SEEMED
THAT THE PUBLIC WASN'T SWAYED
BY THE MORE APOCALYPTIC, HYPERBOLIC QUALITIES
OF THE DEBATE.
THAT THEY-- THE PUBLIC KIND OF WANTED A LEVELHEADED THING,
AND THEY TENDED TO GET RID OF THE PEOPLE
THAT WERE USING WEIRD...
EXTREME SCARE TACTICS. >> MMM-HMM.
>> LIKE, THE THING OF LIKE, "OH, IF YOU ELECT THESE PEOPLE,
"THEN GAY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START GETTING MARRIED."
THAT DIDN'T REALLY FRIGHTEN PEOPLE THAT MUCH.
>> THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ABOUT IT-- >> AND I'M KIND OF HOPEFUL FOR THAT.
>> YEAH-- WELL, AND I THINK, FOR ME, YOU KNOW,
I THINK YOU AND I KIND OF GREW UP IN THE SAME ERA.
UM, YOU KNOW,
COMING AND WATCHING VERY CONSERVATIVE--
AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS-- I MEAN, THINGS JUST CHANGE,
AND THAT'S HOW THIS MOVEMENT HAPPENS, AND FOR ME, I ACTUALLY--
YOU KNOW, FROM LISTENING TO BOTH SIDES AND THEN PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO IT
ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA NETWORKS, WATCHING STORIES BREAK,
WATCHING VIDEOS COME OUT, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT THINGS,
I THINK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT WAS REFRESHING FOR ME,
IS THAT PEOPLE REALLY WENT WITH THEIR HEART,
IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY WANTED FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.
AND IT GOES BACK TO THAT WHOLE NOTION OF,
YOU KNOW, THE "OCCUPIERS,"
UM, SAYING THAT, "YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE,
"SO HOW DO WE GIVE-- HOW DO WE MAKE AN ALTERNATIVE?"
BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T MAKE AN ALTERNATIVE,
THEN YOU'RE JUST ALWAYS GONNA BE STUCK IN THAT SAME THING.
>> I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE-- AND FUNNY,
I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN A BOOK CALLED "LIFE INC."
WHERE I WAS KIND OF LOOKING AT THE CORPORATIZATION
OF PEOPLE AND SOCIETY,
AND I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE MAKE THIS KIND OF SILENT EQUATION
OR CALCULATION IN THEIR HEAD, WHERE THEY THINK,
"CAN I EARN ENOUGH MONEY DOING WHAT I DO
"TO INSULATE MYSELF
"FROM THE REALITY OF THE WORLD?"
RIGHT, “CAN I SEND MY KID TO PRIVATE SCHOOL?
"CAN I GET ENOUGH SECURITY AROUND MY HOUSE?
"CAN I GET INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE I DON'T--"
AND AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE REALIZE
THAT THEY CAN'T EARN THEIR WAY OUT OF THIS MESS,
THEY'VE GOT TO CHOOSE THE ALTERNATIVE,
WHICH IS, "WELL, RATHER THAN MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO INSULATE MYSELF
"FROM THE DARK, EVIL WORLD,
"CAN I MAKE THE DARK, EVIL WORLD
"A PLACE THAT I WOULD LIKE TO LIVE?"
YOU KNOW, AND IT'S SUCH AN EASIER SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.
IT'S LIKE, "WELL, WHAT IF I JUST MAKE A WORLD
"THAT I DON'T HAVE TO INSULATE MYSELF FROM?"
SO, I FEEL LIKE AS PEOPLE MAKE THAT KIND OF DECISION,
UM, YOU KNOW, THEY BECOME MORE AWARE OF THEIR COMMUNITY,
THEY BECOME SORT OF COGNIZANT,
"OH, WELL, IF I TOOK $15,000 OR $20,000 OF MY EFFORT
"AND APPLIED IT TOWARDS MAKING MY PUBLIC SCHOOL A BETTER PLACE,
"THEN WOULD I NOT HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SENDING MY KIDS TO PRIVATE SCHOOL?”
YOU KNOW, "HOW DO I REVERSE THAT?"
AND AS PEOPLE SLOWLY REVERSE THAT, YOU START TO SEE TOWNS COMING BACK,
PEOPLE BUYING LOCALLY, CONSIDERING ALTERNATIVE CURRENCIES,
VOLUNTEERING FOR THINGS THAT ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE,
YOU KNOW, AND THEN, THAT CHANGES THE REAL ISSUES IN THE WORLD--
YOU'RE BUYING FROM COMMUNITY-SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE
INSTEAD OF FROM, YOU KNOW, THE BIG AGRA COMPANY,
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE ENVIRONMENT’S DOING BETTER
'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT SHIPPING CHARD ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN A MAC TRUCK.
AND SO, THESE INCREMENTAL CHANGES
REALLY DO HAVE KINDA SYSTEM-WIDE EFFECTS.
>> DO YOU THINK-- I KNOW WITH WEST MICHIGAN,
BEING A PERSON THAT DOES SOCIAL MEDIA, REPRESENTING DIFFERENT CLIENTS, UM...
A LOT OF THE WAYS THAT PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY
FIND OUT ABOUT NONPROFITS
AND ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SCHOOLS--
I ACTUALLY DO SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGEMENT FOR OUR GRAND RAPIDS PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.
UM, THEY LEARN A LOT ABOUT THAT ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.
THAT'S-- OUR COMMUNITY USES IT.
DOES NEW YORK USE PLATFORMS LIKE FACEBOOK AND TWITTER TO COMMUNICATE--
IT'S A MUCH BIGGER CITY--
UM, DO MOST PEOPLE GET THEIR NEWS AND THEIR INFORMATION FROM T.V.,
FROM PRINT?
UM, HOW DOES THAT WORK, YOU KNOW-- >> I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON THE DEMOGRAPHIC.
I MEAN, IN MY CROWD, MOST PEOPLE GET THEIR NEWS--
THEY GET THEIR LINKS FROM TWITTER, AND THEN FOLLOW IT TO A NEWS STORY.
BUT, UM, I MEAN, NEW YORK IS A TRICKY MARKET, AS IT WERE,
'CAUSE IT'S-- IT IS A NATIONAL MARKET AT THE SAME TIME THAT IT'S A LOCAL,
SO YOU KINDA FEEL-- IF YOU'RE WATCHING, YOU KNOW, THE C.B.S. EVENING NEWS,
IT KIND OF FEELS LIKE YOUR LOCAL NEWS,
BECAUSE IT'S COMING OUT OF ROCK CENTER OR SOME PLACE, YOU KNOW, IN NEW YORK.
UM, BUT YOU KNOW WE'VE GOT OUR LOCAL NEWS, TOO.
WE GOT A CITY THAT-- YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A MAYOR THAT COMMUNICATES PRETTY WELL
THROUGH MEDIA ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.
IT'S A...
IT'S KIND OF A-- IT'S A UNIQUE MEDIA...
MEDIA EQUATION THERE, I THINK, COMPARED TO A PLACE
THAT HAS MORE OF A SENSE OF ITS OWN PLACE.
YOU KNOW, IN NEW YORK, YOU KIND OF FEEL GENERIC,
ON A CERTAIN LEVEL. >> YEAH.
>> YOU KNOW, IT USED TO BE VERY “NEW YORKY.”
THERE WAS INDUSTRY IN NEW YORK. >> MMM-HMM.
>> NOW, IT JUST FEELS LIKE YOU'RE IN-- IT'S LIKE NEW YORK, L.A., SAN FRANCISCO--
YOU'RE PART OF NOW THAT SORT OF GENERIC URBAN MATRIX.
BUT I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF...
I DON'T KNOW, I WAS GOING TO SAY A LOT OF MEDIA PRODUCTION.
YOU KNOW, THAT PEOPLE ARE-- AND I FEEL LIKE THIS IS ALL OVER--
PEOPLE FEEL MUCH MORE LIKE THEY'RE MEDIA PRODUCERS THAN JUST CONSUMERS NOW.
EVEN IF THEY'RE JUST PASSING ON A TWEET OR WRITING A BLOG POST
THAT HAS TWO SENTENCES AT THE BEGINNING AND THE END
OF SOMETHING SOMEONE ELSE HAS SAID. >> MMM-HMM.
>> I THINK THEY FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW,
THE WAY WE CONSUME MEDIA IS BY RE-EXPRESSING IT,
YOU KNOW, PASSING IT...
UM, WHICH IS AT LEAST A BABY STEP TOWARDS ACTUALLY SPEAKING ONESELF.
>> YEAH-- WELL, I KNOW FOR-- I KNOW WITH THE WORK THAT I DO, UM...
I DON'T EVEN, HONESTLY, BOTHER FOLLOWING OUR LOCAL MEDIA,
BECAUSE IT'S-- YOU KNOW, IT'S OUT THERE BUT, UM, NEW YORK REALLY DOES FALL,
LIKE, RIGHT INTO THE SAME CATEGORY AS, YOU KNOW, C.N.N.,
UM, YOU KNOW, SOME OTHER BREAKING TWEET-- UM, TWITTER HANDLES THAT I FOLLOW.
SO, “NEW YORK,” N.B.C.-- >> ALTHOUGH, I'LL TELL YOU,
WHEN THE HURRICANE HAPPENED JUST TWO WEEKS AGO,
THE "NEW YORK TIMES," WHICH IS TRYING SO HARD TO BE THE NATIONAL PAPER
AND COMPETE WITH MURDOCH AND ALL THAT,
THEY KIND OF WEREN'T THERE ON THIS-- OUR STORY.
AND MY SPORTS RADIO STATION-- DO YOU HAVE THE “F.A.N." HERE?
I THINK IT'S EVERYWHERE, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE “F.A.N.”
IS 66 AM, IS WHERE I GET MY NEWS ABOUT THE KNICKS
AND THE TEAMS I CARE ABOUT, RIGHT? >> MMM-HMM.
>> AND THOSE WERE THE GUYS WHO WERE TALKING ABOUT, "WHERE'S THE LIGHTS UP?
"WHERE ARE THEY DOWN?
"WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR GENERATOR, WHAT'S GOING ON?"
IT WAS LIKE OUR SPORTS RADIO BECAME THE ADVOCATES OF US.
YOU KNOW-- AND THE A.O.L. HAS THIS THING CALLED "THE PATCH,"
THAT'S, LIKE, EVERYWHERE NOW.
AND SORT OF A.O.L. IS TRYING TO HAVE LOCAL MEDIA ON THE NET.
UM, PEOPLE ARE TURNING TO "THE PATCH" AND “THE RIVERTOWNS PRESS."
I LIVE IN THIS TOWN CALLED HASTINGS-ON-HUDSON.
>> MMM-HMM. >> YOU KNOW, IT'S A LITTLE TOWN
BUT OUR LITTLE PAPER BECOMES A HUB OF OUR INFORMATION--
ON THE TOWN FACEBOOK PAGE.
ALTHOUGH, FACEBOOK'S GOT--
YOU KNOW, FACEBOOK DOESN'T DISSEMINATE ITS MESSAGES ANYMORE,
WE'VE GOT TO PAY TO GET DISSEMINATED--
I MEAN, THERE'S THESE AWFUL STORIES, LIKE A MEMORIAL SITE FOR SOME KID,
YOU KNOW, AND IT'S GOT 40 FOLLOWERS, AND THEN THEY ASK THE DAD--
YOU KNOW, ON THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY,
HE WANTED TO SAY, "OKAY, IT'S THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY--
"WE'RE GONNA HOLD THE CEREMONY HERE,"
AND FACEBOOK GIVES THIS MESSAGE TO HIM THAT SAYS, "WELL, YOU CAN REACH,
"YOU KNOW, 18 OF HIS FOLLOWERS UNLESS YOU WANT TO PAY 30 BUCKS
"AND YOU CAN REACH THE OTHER 30 OF THEM,"
AND HE'S LIKE, "OH, MY GOD, YOU'RE GONNA MAKE ME PAY TO REACH THE PEOPLE
"WHO WANT TO GO TO MY KID'S FUNERAL?"
THAT'S LIKE ANTISOCIAL SOCIAL NETWORKING. >> IT IS!
BUT NOW, YOU KNOW, NOT TO GET OFF TOPIC,
BUT HONESTLY, FROM YOUR PERCEPTION OF THAT,
IS THAT-- THAT'S THE ONGOING QUESTION
TO SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGERS LIKE MYSELF,
THAT HAVE WATCHED OUR ENGAGEMENT LEVEL GO FROM “PRETTY GOOD ENGAGEMENT" TO,
ALL OF A SUDDEN, JUST ONE DAY, IT JUST DROPPED OFF.
AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY, NOW, THAT YOU CAN DO IT.
SO, ZUCKERBERG IS SMART-- YOU KNOW, HE WANTS TO MONETIZE EVERYTHING,
AND PEOPLE ARE DOING IT, BUT DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S EFFECTIVE,
BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT I'M HEARING FROM ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE GETTING HITS,
BUT THEY'RE GETTING HITS FROM INDIA AND DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT ARE IRRELEVANT--
>> I THINK THAT IT IS THE GREATEST CORPORATE FUCK-UP SINCE NEW COKE...
>> YEAH. >> ONLY THIS ONE MIGHT BE PERMANENT.
YOU KNOW, THIS ONE MIGHT BE PERMANENT BECAUSE EVEN IF HE UNDOES IT--
ALL RIGHT, IF HE GOES, "OH, I'M SORRY, IT WAS A MISTAKE,”
WE KNOW NOW THAT HE CAN. >> MMM-HMM.
>> AND WE KNOW NOW THAT HE WOULD, IF GIVEN THE CHANCE.
AND THAT SORT OF-- YOU KNOW, HE DOES THESE BAD THINGS,
THEN HE PULLS BACK, BUT THEN SLIGHTLY-- NO, I AM OFF IT.
I AM OFF IT.
YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT-- AND IT WAS A LOT OF WORK.
YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT 7,000 OR 8,000-- 9,000 FACEBOOK "FANS," AS THEY'RE CALLED,
WHICH IS PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW WHEN AM I COMING TO TOWN,
WHEN IS MY BOOK COMING OUT, WHAT'S MY LATEST C.N.N. ARTICLE,
YOU KNOW, WHAT AM I DOING?
UM, AND THEY'RE SAYING HERE, "YOU REACH THIS MANY PEOPLE
"UNLESS YOU PAY US."
WELL, YEAH, OKAY, SO WHEN MY NEXT BOOK COMES OUT IN MARCH--
"PRESENT SHOCK," YOU CAN ALL BUY IT IN AMAZON NOW--
WHEN MY NEXT BOOK COMES OUT, I AM GOING TO SEND ONE FACEBOOK PAID MESSAGE--
I'LL PAY THE $40 OR $50, WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY WANT
FOR ME TO GET--
AND I'M GONNA LET PEOPLE KNOW, "I'M PAYING FOR THIS MESSAGE,
"IT'S THE ONLY TIME I CAN DO IT."
I'M AN AUTHOR, WE DON'T GET PAID A LOT ANYMORE.
>> RIGHT. >> THIS IS THAT IT, "AND FAREWELL..."
YOU KNOW, "AND FAREWELL," AND THEN JUST END THE PAGE.
>> YEAH, IT'S THE NEWEST THING, FOR SURE, AND IT'S PERPLEXING TO ME.
SO, I HAVE TO WONDER IF, YOU KNOW,
GOING BACK TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING WITH "OCCUPY,"
IF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGEMENT FOR COMPANIES--
AND I DO IT FOR VERY SMALL BUSINESSES--
BUT THE BIG ONES, IF NOBODY DOES IT,
THEN WHAT HAPPENS? >> EXACTLY-- WHAT HAPPENS?
WE MOVE ON... G.M. MOVED ON.
YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ONE OF THE FIRST ONES.
THEY WERE JUST LIKE, "SCREW THIS-- THIS IS POINTLESS."
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IF YOU DON'T PAY IT, THEN PEOPLE HAVE TO--
>> AND IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE. >> MMM-HMM.
>> YOU KNOW, SO AS THEY REALIZE IT'S NOT-- I MEAN, WHERE FACEBOOK COULD HAVE
AND SHOULD HAVE MADE ITS MONEY--
ONLY IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY ITS VALUATION,
WHICH IS WHY I SAID IT WAS NEVER GONNA WORK.
IS SELLING OUR SOCIAL GRAPH WAS VALUABLE, RIGHT?
WHO ARE ALL MY FRIENDS, HOW DO I THINK, WHAT DO I BUY, WHAT DO I SHARE?
THAT'S VALUABLE TO SOCIAL MARKET RESEARCH, TO AXIOM, TO CLARITAS,
TO ALL OF THE GREAT...
CONSUMER ANALYTICS COMPANIES.
BUT EVEN THOUGH THAT'S A MULTIBILLION-DOLLAR BUSINESS,
IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, $100 OR $200 BILLION BUSINESS,
SO FACEBOOK CAN'T ACHIEVE ITS VALUATION, CAN'T JUSTIFY ITS VALUATION
WITHOUT FINDING NEW REVENUE SOURCES
AND, UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO BE ONE OF THEM.
>> NOW, DO YOU THINK HE'LL FIND IT, THOUGH?
>> NO, HE WON'T. >> YOU DON'T THINK SO?
>> HE DOESN'T HAVE TO, THOUGH.
HE GOT HIS MONEY. >> THAT'S TRUE.
>> THEY'RE RELEASING 800 MILLION SHARES OR SOMETHING TOMORROW.
(laughing) WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
>> TWITTER, THEN. >> TWITTER.
>> THAT'S YOUR FAVORITE? >> I MEAN, YEAH-- YOU KNOW, TWITTER--
>> I MEAN, THERE IS GOOGLE+, THERE'S INSTAGRAM, PIN-INTEREST--
YOU KNOW, THAT CAME AND WENT FOR ME-- >> YEAH.
>> INSTAGRAM IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S VISUAL-- IT'S SORT OF ENGAGING--
>> OH, IT’S PIN-INTEREST?
I NEVER HEARD IT SAID! >> PIN-INTEREST, YEAH.
>> I NEVER HEARD IT SAID-- I ALWAYS SAY “PINTEREST.”
>> “PINTEREST,” I KNOW, RIGHT? >> BUT IT'S NOT!
DO OTHER PEOPLE SAY THAT-- THAT'S FUNNY.
>> YEAH, SO, I'M NOT-- YOU KNOW-- >> THAT'S FUNNY.
>> WHICH ONE DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE?
>> TWITTER WORKS.
THE ISSUE WITH TWITTER IS NOW-- TWITTER KIND OF CLOSED ITS A.P.I.,
WHICH MEANS NOW YOU CAN'T KIND OF TWITTERFY THINGS YOURSELF.
YOU CAN'T KIND OF TAKE ITS PROGRAM AND USE IT...
YOU CAN'T, LIKE, INSTALL IT INTO VARIOUS THINGS.
>> TO LINKEDIN AND THE OTHER PLACES YOU CAN POST TO.
>> BECAUSE THEY WANNA BE THE HUB. >> MMM-HMM.
>> SO THAT THEY CAN ADVERTISE AND DO THINGS THAT THEY DO,
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S GONNA DO
OR HOW LONG THEY'RE GONNA LET US DO WHAT WE'RE DOING.
THE FUNCTIONALITY OF FACEBOOK IS GOING TO BE RE-CREATED,
WHETHER IT'S BY CORA OR DIASPORA OR ONE OF THE OTHER SERVICES COMING UP.
AND THE FUNCTIONALITY OF TWITTER, IN THEORY, COULD ALSO BE REPEATED,
BUT I FEEL LIKE TWITTER IS SUCH A LITTLE-- TWITTER'S A LITTLE UTILITY,
TWITTER’S LIKE A GOOGLE WINDOW, TWITTER'S LIKE A THING--
IT KIND OF WORKS IN A DIFFERENT WAY
THAT I DON'T THINK IT'S GONNA GET AS CONVOLUTED
AND SCREWED UP AS FACEBOOK GOT.
SO, YEAH, I'M GONNA STILL USE THAT
UNTIL IT'S BROKEN OR UNTIL THEY BREAK IT ON PURPOSE.
>> MMM-HMM.
SO, DO YOU GET-- YOU PROBABLY GET A LOT OF ENGAGEMENT
THROUGH THAT WITH THE THINGS THAT YOU DO WITH YOUR FOLLOWERS.
>> YEAH, IT'S GOOD.
YOU KNOW, AND IT'S A WAY FOR SOMEONE, IN SOME WAYS-- AND I HATE TO ADMIT IT--
IN SOME WAYS, THEY GET A FASTER, BETTER ANSWER TO SOMETHING
THAN BY EMAILING ME. >> MMM-HMM.
>> YOU KNOW, IF THEY TWEET,
YOU KNOW, “RUSHKOFF, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS SUCH-AND-SUCH CURRENCY?"
OR "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?"
YOU KNOW...
IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS OF INTEREST TO A LOT OF PEOPLE,
I'LL TRY TO CREATE A LITTLE TWEET OR I'LL WRITE A PIECE ON IT
AND THEN SAY, "HERE'S THE ANSWER-- HERE'S MY RESPONSE TO YOU,"
AND LINK TO IT. (music)
>> WELL, I COULD TALK TO YOU FOR HOURS,
BUT THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE ME STOP NOW,
SO THAT CONCLUDES OUR TALK WITH DOUGLAS RUSHKOFF.
>> THANK YOU. >> THANKS FOR COMING TO GRAND RAPIDS.
(music)