THE DALAI LAMA: I already told them about you.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: I heard.
[APPLAUSE]
THE DALAI LAMA: I heard your voice through BBC.
You really use very, very kind words.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: That is a beautiful way to begin
this day, and I think all of us came here and received
these wonderful tags this morning.
And if we notice, it does not say VIP on here, but
rather it says VSP.
And that comes straight from this wonderful Archbishop of
ours, that each person is a Very Special Person.
So remember that.
Today we're very, very fortunate to have two of the
world's most very special people, the world's two
greatest spiritual leaders.
But the other thing that I see in both His Holiness, The
Dalai Lama, and our Archbishop Tutu, is a magnificent
friendship that the two of them have formed, and their
wonderful capacity to celebrate life and friendship.
And while it is a real pity that His Holiness cannot be
here in a chair sitting next to Archbishop Tutu to have
this conversation this morning, we are so grateful
for the world of technology that has come to us, and we
can have this conversation.
[APPLAUSE]
So I'm going to open my questions this morning with a
question on friendship, and the friendship of these two
very special people.
You come from very different cultural and religious
backgrounds, and yet you found each other somehow, and came
together in this beautiful friendship.
I'd just like to know, and I think all of us would like to
know, what is it that draws you to each other?
What do you recognize in each other?
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: I'm the young one here, so I'm
going to speak first.
THE DALAI LAMA: I [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
I always respect youth.
So first you make comment.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: All right.
I believe I have met one of, if not the--
well, one of the holiest people in the world.
Someone who has amazed me, and the fact that he has been in
exile over 50 years.
And where you expected him to be bitter, and angry, he's
actually a bundle of joy.
I have sometimes got to tell him because he is, in fact,
quite mischievous.
I have to warn him sometimes and say hey, hey,
hey, hey, look here.
The cameras are on us.
You need to try and behave like a holy man.
[LAUGHTER]
As you know, everywhere in the world where he goes, they have
to find the largest venue because so many people
want to hear him.
I mean once we went to Seattle, and the largest place
was this football stadium.
Over 60,000 people were waiting there, waiting for
someone who actually can't even speak English properly.
No--
[LAUGHTER]
--I am not--
And I really want to assure you, I'm not jealous.
[LAUGHTER]
But he just is a fantastic human being.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: And Your Holiness, we
turn it over to you.
THE DALAI LAMA: So when I meet people, first I consider the
other just another human being.
From my side also.
Whenever I met someone, I already feel I'm
another human being.
So the quality on that level, I consider the
most important thing.
Now, you, Archbishop Tutu, on that merit, I think of you,
yourself, completely free.
You act as a human being.
So on that level, we can develop genuine trust. On that
basis, genuine friendship.
So you, sometimes when you describe me as a mischievous,
as you just mentioned, I will tell you, you
also mischievous person.
[LAUGHTER]
But then once you did it, two mischievous people, two
mischievous persons, automatically develop special
friendship.
Then secondly, you, genuine religious believer.
You always carry the true message of Jesus Christ. I
consider you as a man of faith.
Man of honest. So that also one reason I develop respect
and friendship.
Then also I think the times also want better.
I can't remember which war we first met, but since then,
many occasion, we had opportunity meeting.
Whenever we two together, the atmosphere usually change.
Full of joys, full of bemuse, no doubt.
And then thirdly, you actually implement what you believe.
In critical period, the old country, the movement of
reconciliation is really the years of servitude, of
service, to a society that there is a distrust there.
So these are the reasons I develop respect and become a
very close friend.
Human friend, personal friend.
That's it for my view.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: Those are beautiful views from
both of you.
One of the things that I observed in your relationship
to one another is a beautiful playfulness, and an affection
that comes with this friendship.
I just wonder what you feel is the role of playfulness in a
friendship, just briefly, to follow-up.
THE DALAI LAMA: Of course naturally, yeah-huh, problems,
so some unnecessary difficulty.
Essentially, our own creation, many of
them, our own creation.
So in special circumstances, laughter is all.
Laughter, humor.
Then really creates calm atmosphere.
Warm atmosphere.
That's really important.
With that kind of atmosphere, then discuss seriously which
point we are facing.
Other hand, the things are difficult to discuss.
And on some of that, atmosphere also creates more
difficulty.
What news?
After all, they also want a good life.
Also, you see, and, thus, smile.
This side also loves smile.
So that's better to create more friendly atmosphere, and
let know each other, as human brother, sisters.
We both, we would want something.
We don't want problems.
So let us try to form this [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
That's my belief.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Yes.
I think in that chair, he makes holiness so attractive.
[LAUGHTER]
There's far too much, I think, solemnity.
I once saw a wonderful picture which was a picture of Peter
and two of the disciples, and Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ
was laughing uproariously, throwing his head back.
And this caption was Jesus laughing at a joke Peter told.
So frequency, actually, we think of our
Lord Jesus as a sourpuss.
Yes, he was solemn because you saw so many other issues.
But can we imagine someone who was a
sourpuss attracting children?
I mean he was very attractive for children because he exuded
joy, a deep joy.
And look at some of the stories he tells.
He couldn't have told [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
the story of the guy who comes along, and says hey,
hey you, you. you.
No, no, no, no, no.
You have a splinter in your eye.
And Jesus tells a story, hey, how can you see the splinter
in this guy's eye when you've got a whole beam?
The people must have been rolling in the aisles when he
told that one.
And he's kind of been telling [MUMBLING SOUND].
[LAUGHTER]
I think he's very playful, he was playful and fun.
And that was why he was so attractive.
And maybe that is what he could cry.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: Today, we were going to have
Your Holiness come to us and speak on peace and compassion
as a catalyst for change.
Since you are not here physically with us, we'd like
to know what the kernel of that message would have been.
What is the core message that you would have brought to us
here at the University of the Western Cape in the very first
Desmond Tutu International Peace Lecture.
THE DALAI LAMA: I am one of the nearly seven
billion human beings.
The future of humanity depend on our generation.
Of course, future depends on present.
So we have opportunity to create happier future of the
whole future.
Of course, natural disaster, these are beyond our control.
But all of those [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
men make problems. Actually, our own creation.
Yet, nobody want problems. Nobody wants problem.
Yet we create it by ourselves, some of the problems.
So this argument today share, not only in brains, but share
more [UNINTELLIGIBLE], suspicion, distrust, jealousy,
then create these destructive
activities, destructive emotion.
So in order to change things for better, the first, not
only sufficient smart brain, but share, we must develop
warm-heartedness, central concern of other human beings,
just like myself.
They also want a good life.
So that kind of motivation, sense of concern of other
human being, once that motivation's there, then there
is no room to want to develop desire from other, only other,
certain other.
He loves that.
So therefore, to change better world, more peaceful world,
more truthful world, first some thoughts must develop in
individual's heart.
That's compassion.
Sense of concern of other human being.
Now here, I usually, you see, others will follow.
Through this one way to more compassion
through religious belief.
God is integral to love.
God loves us.
So we must--
and entire humanity, create a [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
So that kind of belief, respect other, love other.
Then another [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
without talking religious belief, basic human nature.
Now according some scientific research, they find more
compassionate thought, your physical condition becomes
better, more healthier.
Angry, anger, hatred, fear, suspicion, constantly keep
here, your physical room.
So therefore, practice of compassion is not only
[UNINTELLIGIBLE], next on the heaven or some other thing, or
from religious viewpoint, salvation, not only for these
things, but day-to-day life.
And in a level, community level, global level, the real
precious thing written within us is warm-heartedness.
So I usually try to make clear by people, the ultimate source
of your own well-being, your own happy life
is within your wisdom.
Pay more attention about this event.
Is it correct, OK?
[LAUGHTER]
If you agree these views, then don't call me mischievous.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: Your beautiful, warm-heartedness
certainly comes through in that, Your Holiness,
every bit of that.
And I would turn to you, Archbishop, for a moment, and
ask you now.
There was a time when I was in war zones all over the world,
and I kept seeing people destroy one another, and
destroy villages, and homes, and communities.
I kept asking the question, how do we get upstream?
How do we prevent wars from happening to begin with?
How do we learn how to build a culture of peace to promote a
positive peace in our hearts and in our world?
How would you respond to that?
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: It's actually
very straightforward.
[ARCHBISHOP LAUGHING]
Let women take over.
[APPLAUSE]
But that is actually seriously meant.
It means to celebrate today the award of the Nobel Peace
Prize to three women.
[APPLAUSE]
It is to say--
actually thinking about Liberia just now.
One of the reasons why the war stopped in Liberia was because
the women of all faiths decided that they were going
to pray the devil back to hell.
[LAUGHTER]
And basically they told their men folk enough is enough.
I mean that logically.
Women are meant to be all life-givers, you know.
And I think that when women are truly feminine, when they
don't try to ape men, that basically they will say I
can't carry a baby in my womb for nine months and then agree
for that child to become kennel fod.
You are biologically life-giving, life-affirming.
That is that what you are naturally.
That is what you are when you are unspoiled.
And I think it's no mistake at all to have said the hand that
rocks the cradle rules the world.
I think Hitler turned out as he turned out because Hitler
was not [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
by his [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
Hitler did not get the sense of security that made him feel
good about himself.
And because he felt empty inside he tried, as foolish
tend to do, tried to get the affirmation by being a nasty.
And in a way it is an appeal to women, to mothers, come
into your own.
We men are socialized into being much aggressive even if
you actually are feeling insecure.
And perhaps, as I've sometimes said half jokingly, that of
all of God's creatures, men are the most insecure, and
we're very good actors.
But I have found it about myself, I also facetiously,
but really only maybe a third facetiously, I say, well,
especially in the United States, I speak and then I get
a standing ovation, and I ought to feel good.
I don't until Leah says later on.
But I think what The Dalai Lama was saying about
compassion, that is what women would normally be.
We have saying in one of our languages where they say, a
mother can share even the eye of a fly.
That women, because of this capacity to be caring, to be
compassionate, to be life affirming can actually make
society survive.
But they're on the edge.
And I am quite willing to be a chaplain into that movement.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: I think all we women and the men
folk in here, too, would give a grateful applause to the
archbishop for the thoughts that you just gave us on that,
and the importance today of the awarding to the three
women of the Nobel Peace Prize this year.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: I just wanted to
say one more thing.
His Holiness, actually, is very, very, very modest. And
in some ways, when he says what he says, with some
difficulty in the English language, he--
I still doubt you, don't worry--
no, he's quite amazing, the work that they have done with
people in MIT.
This whole thing where he was speaking about scientists and
doctors discovering that, for instance, people who pray,
it's been found that it has a positive influence on your
physical capacities.
And when you are unwell they have found--
and they say scientific but I don't know-- but they say
scientifically, they have found that those people tend
to have a better chance of surviving and getting better.
He's not said everything--
information--
so he is genuinely modest.
But when you are saying that they have found--
he's spent some time at Harvard where they have been
working on the impact of
spirituality on our well being.
There is positive scientific evidence that it is not just a
flowery thing, I mean, that the Tutu's of this world make
you have to think.
It actually does make you better.
When you are compassionate your blood pressure tends to
be no lower than the blood pressure of the person who is
aggressive and angry.
And we know it.
We have experienced it each in some way that when you are
angry you feel it in your tum tum.
Yeah.
I just wanted people to be aware that--
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: And are you finding more and more
that there is a strong hunger for a deepening of
spirituality among the peoples of the world?
THE DALAI LAMA: Yes.
See quite a number of places see a difference of what they
say, races, I notice now people they can do
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]
limitation of material value because there are people who,
very rich, billionaire, still, as a person, not happy,
unhappy person.
Too much worry, too much anxiety, too much fear.
And on top of that, as you mentioned, the scientifically
now show very clear [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
finding that calm mind very good for our health.
And the ultimate source of calm mind is open heart,
compassionate heart.
So as a person becomes happier, healthier.
And also their social relations, interaction with
other people also improve.
So third, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
now scientifically agree the inner value
is very, very important.
Now question is how to over-get that, may I say so?
Not like us, religious person, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
not sufficient but through education system.
This is basically, of course, all [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
that essential practices, love, compassion, forgiveness.
But itself not necessarily religious subject.
It is something important, useful for every single being
even [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
warmheartedness, sense of discipline, sense of moral
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].
These are very, very essential.
So through education we can educate people in kindergarten
up to university level.
Warmheartedness was for their own interest as much as
important [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
in achieving value.
Material value very important, very good for our physical
comfort, but mental comfort is inner values
are very, very essential.
So I would like to add something.
Ask my other elder spiritual brothers, and also elder Nobel
laureate stated [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
now this century, 21st century, should be century of
dialogue, century of peace.
In order to create peace in this century it does not mean
no longer any problems any sort of potential of conflict.
Problem there, we must find reasoned means to solve these
problem through peaceful means, develop dialogue.
We must develop this century to be century of dialogue.
Previous century becomes century of violence.
So now [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
that biologically, as you rightfully mentioned, females
more sensitive about other's pain.
Now, some scientists--
also, this is mentioned--
when two persons, one male one female observing one person's
painful experiences and response from two persons.
The female much stronger response because,
biologically, more sensitivity,
about other's pain.
So therefore, now this century, in order to be
peaceful century, we must promote value
of compassion, love.
For that, now, female should take more active role
regarding promotion of human compassion, human affection.
So please, you, the moderator, as a female, you should take
more active role Now we ready to take more rest. You already
now retired.
I also now retired from political leadership.
So now, and I really very much missing you since you retired.
Now few occasion, some [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
meeting, but you are not there.
I always feel something missing.
Really.
[INAUDIBLE]
visit there.
See you and some exchange of some mischievous word.
OK now.
Now this I really very much enjoy.
Although physically a long distance but I
can see your face.
So I really feel very, very happy.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: My dear brother, I know that we
belong in a mutual admiration society.
But I just wanted to find out from you, I mean, you may have
many secrets, do you have an army?
THE DALAI LAMA: Spiritual.
Spiritual level.
Yes, I have army.
Not weapon, but wisdom.
And compassion.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: I was asking this question only to
find out why does the Chinese government fear you?
THE DALAI LAMA: It's quite simple.
Some Chinese officials described me as a demon.
So naturally, some fear about this demon.
When I first time heard this is that kind of Chinese
official's comment, I feel laughing so I immediately just
went, yes, I have horns, demon horns.
I think in reality, the communist totalitarian system,
and not only communist but many totalitarian system,
hypocrisy telling lies is, unfortunately, become part of
their life.
So this is someone who could tell truth, honesty,
truthfully, just [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
If those people who carry hypocrisy as a way of life
then feel uncomforted.
So like you, me also, trying to make
clear, what's the reality.
And also, now, the best case.
I often telling 1.3 billion Chinese people should have
every right to know the reality.
Then 1.3 billion Chinese people also have ability to
judge what is right, what is wrong.
So therefore, censorship is immoral.
[INAUDIBLE]
Let them know the reality.
And then, another thing.
People from China, they are a judiciary system, still very,
very low, becomes the instrument.
So the Chinese judicial system must raise up to international
raw standard.
That's, I think, very, very important.
So I'm often telling when I met some Chinese friends, some
professors, some artists, some students, I always telling
them people from China, most populated nation, and China
have a great potential to serve, to take constructive
role on this planet.
For that, trust from the rest of the world
is very, very necessary.
Respect, trust from the rest of the
world is very necessary.
For that reason transparency is very essential.
So you also, I think many people listen you, trust you,
so speak these points.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Thank you.
Thank you, my friend.
Thank you.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: It seems like when you were
asking the question, and you were responding, some of that
mischievousness and that playfulness came through.
But there was a real seriousness in
what you we're saying.
And the transparency and the trust that is so important
that we bring in trying to resolve so many of the crucial
issues that we have in our world today.
And I think, too, of the Arab Spring, for example, and the
role of youth that they have played in this Arab Spring.
And the way in which it started out more for the
citizens, for example, of Libya, and now seems to be
more of a fight for the resources of that country.
How do we turn some of that around, and really create that
kind of environment of compassion, and a kind of
environment of accountability in those who govern, and in
the international bodies like the United Nations?
And how do we instill in the youth, the generation that is
coming forward now, these visions and values that you
two so beautifully portray in your life and want
to pass on to them?
THE DALAI LAMA: You have more experience at particularly the
northern Africa, is part of Africa as someone from
sub-Africa.
Give them some ideas, some suggestions.
I think very worthwhile.
I'm very far away.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Yes.
I was going to say that's cheating, but I don't think
that I will apply to you today.
No, quite right.
I have constantly been amazed, when I meet people.
And I've been on this semester at sea, Leah and I have been
on this now twice going right around the world.
And I am constantly bowled over by the incredible
idealism of the young people.
They go anywhere where they see poverty, they want to
change that.
And I think that we ought to be saying to them, go ahead
and dream, and dream.
Part of what is happening, for instance, in Egypt is that
they've toppled one regime, but some of the power
structures of that regime remain.
The army is probably not one that has been reformed.
And the young people, and the others are saying no, this is
not the kind of freedom we wanted.
We want a freedom where those who govern are accountable.
And I have a lot of time.
I have a lot of faith in young people, and I always say to
them, please do not allow yourselves to be infected by
the cynicism all oldies like us.
Dream.
And they are inspired by people like Bono, like Gerdolf
and others that how much you can be history.
It is possible for us one day to get into our numb skulls
that it is far better to invest the resources that we
have. Not in budgets or destruction and death--
billion.
When we can have a very minute fraction making sure that
children everywhere have clean water to drink, have enough
food to eat.
I mean have a good life.
And I believe that we're letting them down.
And we in the faith community ought to be saying to people,
do you know God created us for famine.
We belong together.
We are sisters and brothers, not as a figure
of speech, but created.
And after all, we all began in one place, Africa.
We are all African.
[APPLAUSE]
THE DALAI LAMA: I have one thing, one thing to say.
Those North African States, now
rescinding is a big change.
So now, I think that as a people's peaceful movement,
finally big change.
And I'll take risk now.
I think [UNINTELLIGIBLE], you can show them the spiritual
reconciliation.
I think that's very important.
[UNINTELLIGIBLE], violence, this is nationally.
You see some [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
difficult feelings.
Some anger, some hatred, some sorrow.
Well, to your spirit, and your work, show them reconciliation
is highly necessarily.
Then more genuine unity built their nation.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Yes.
THE DALAI LAMA: To achieve what they are dreaming.
Their dream only materialized through their work.
Not just word.
In order to carry unified work with [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
reconciliation is something very essential.
So that I think my other brother, I think have plenty
of experience.
You teach them, through suggest them.
This is one thing.
Then these years recently, I also use mentioning the
corruption.
Almost like new disease, new cancer of the whole world,
whole planet.
[APPLAUSE]
So you and I, myself also, you see God gave [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
a Nobel Peace Prize.
Peace means non-violence.
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].
The corruption, corrupt it, also kind of violence.
Violence, no only just a physical struggle, but also
the teaching.
But teaching injustly take advantage.
And these corruptions are awful.
Serious violence.
So when we talk want non-violence, want promotion
of every society that at least you also should mention
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]
corruptions.
I think that's very important.
Why should we go to developing nations like China, India, and
some other.
The amount of money which come through corruption is this
money spent on the welfare of all essential people.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Yeah.
THE DALAI LAMA: It can be something you trigger.
I've been in your continent, Africa.
Also I've heard from distance, plenty of corruptions.
[APPLAUSE]
I think we have some now, I think specials of
responsibility to remind them.
Then, as a religious believer, I usually have attending some
of my friends who believe God.
Then there's only two fights.
Either believe God and act truthful, honest. Or deny God
and corruption.
It is impossible.
Pray to God.
Worship to God, but don't care about God's message, and you
fully carry, you carry corruption.
It is big contradiction.
If you really want to be corrupted person, then don't
pray to God.
[LAUGHTER]
So I always [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
pray to God almost something like teaching God.
I pray to you, but I don't listen.
I'm not listening to you [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE].
Cheating God.
So therefore, I also, you see, am a religious person.
So I often telling people, if you really believe in
religion, really believe Buddha, really believe God,
you must implement God's message, Buddha's message.
So this I wanting to share with you.
What you think?
[APPLAUSE]
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Thank you, my friend.
Thank you.
PROFESSOR JUDITH MAYOTTE: I think that we could go on all
day long with these two very special friends talking with
one another.
But I know that we need to come to a close here.
But Your Holiness, I would like to ask
you one more thing.
If you were wanting to give a gift from your heart to your
very special 80-year-old friend here on his birthday,
what is that gift that you would give to him?
THE DALAI LAMA: Firstly, as a religious believer, Buddhist,
I offer you thorough all my [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
Working through my own practice, dedicate all your
life, for your health.
So the other day I mentioned you, as a man of truth, man of
God, please live long.
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].
[APPLAUSE]
Your 90th birthday I'm looking forward.
[APPLAUSE]
At that time, don't forget send me invitation.
[APPLAUSE]
Then we can test your government.
[APPLAUSE]
FEMALE SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE].
MALE SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE].
[ALL SINGING]
