[official] Is God Necessary for Morality? William Lane Craig and Louise Antony [1 of 2]

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Good Evening
I would like to thank the Veritas Forum for taking
part in tonight's debate
Professor Antony and I
have previously debate the subject of God
and have the opportunity to continue our discussion this evening
now the question before us this evening is is god necessary fo r morality
notice what the question is not asking
are not asking
whether believe
in god
is necessary for morality. no one in tonight's debate
is arguing that in order to live a moral life
you have to believe in god
rather the question is whether God is necessary for morality
the answer to that question obviously depends on what you mean by morality
if by morality cuming simply a certain pattern of social behavior prevalent
among human beings
then obviously that sort of behavior could still go on
even if it turned out that god does not exist
in order for human beings to exhibit certain patterns of social behavior
which they call acting morally
but enough by morality you mean that certain things are really good or evil
that certain actions are unconditionally obligatory or impermissible
than many atheists and theorists alike agree
but god is indeed necessary for morality
in the absence of god
morality turns out to be just acumen elution
patterns of social behavior might go on without god
but it would be a delusion to think that
uh... such behavior has any objective moral significance
accordingly in tonight's debate
i'm going to argue that god is necessary for morality
in at least three distinct ways
without god objective moral values
moral duties
and moral accountability would not exist
so let's look at that first point together if god does not exist objective
moral values
do not exist
and i said that when we talk about moral values we're talking about something is
good or chemo nazi era chat worldnet
is to say it's a good people independently appointed by the police
whole hotspot he
is just a all
isn't all that
and it would stop their evil
world war two
ecstasy hit great work exterminating everybody who disagree with them
so uh... huh
the lord
whitehurst's claims together
there is no now and moreover object is
in access
traditionally object
mason na who was the highest
p meatballs
of world
holy looking pages lives
against which all ac
he has five feature
generous, faithful
not yes objective
moral values exist
but if God does
not exist
pollinate used
major triple relatively recently
lost somewhere in a hostel
before time
arches byproduct about biological evolution
actual all vision
just as a trial
species cooper
themselves sacrificial here
selection pretended to be act
pages sources hole
so there
seller here
as a result socio byline
there'd carl state for
which is useful
it'd be a perpetuation parsons
but obviously cc opt sings
below sci fi rooms reports
the position at the bottom of the business fears the humans
awareness program
the cross-section awareness is biological work
more items of biological lactation
checked something
disputes illusory
i'd appreciate it was so upset
interest cell
they are different themselves
nevertheless rent out
and reproduction
and any deeper meaning
evening works have been y
the film human evolution back
it's start
people with a very himself
moral grounds will have mall
astounds world said
worrier precisely the same conditions said
their part our mary emails would like to worries
is sick
and mother's striking killer rulers and not walk with a abuser
developing human beings special
an hour
is com
to the temptation to the species
the all species
worthless it
is underscored
stereotypically materials
no materials
tours outcall soul or line
the quality
she's archer's apology
there's he said
when a terrorist bomb
reduced to a bar backpack
all really
and speed
uh... molecules
is he allure
here's mom
district bring
and everything
is that far apart
five cents
there's for result heated lease
but without not our choices it's morally sick they're like jerks of apartments
controllers dissension and physical
warrants foods
return bonuses
many press
beaudoin on use innocent mistake when he says
what was did
we are machines for probably going to be a day
it used to
uh... textiles
if there is no god
basis regarding
the burt
all state
stupid who job picture
statewide creature times dust
with dilutions of or
his not
objective moral tiffany's
duties whether something is right
or role
university hit
wants the same abstention good people
and see if this isn't the case
has to do with moral application
or ought not
about but you're not
morally obligated to do something just because it would be good
for you to do it
it would be great preview to become a doctor
witchhunt morally are quick to become a doctor
after all it would also be good for you to be are clarified or a homemaker
but hit the ball
so did principle
and moral these
not likely
listed god does not exist
that we have no to active
moral these
to send me
moral obligations
regardless of what we think that we do
our moral duties will talk to spring
mam such as the ten
fire from the arteries meant
flow from god's spirit nature
on his foundation we confirm the object of rights lot generosity self-sacrifice
heater use pressure
and discrimination
there is no god what pieces remains or objective moral use
obviously you human beings are just happens
all he's on
when a lot
easy rib it tells his team
but it does not
went great white shark forcibly conflicts with the female it forcefully
conflicts with their
for none of these things has the moral dimension their your productivity
nor laboratory
it's not one
thank moral obligations to do
world obligations watchword
it's very hard to see wire
e war
this subject depressions
review to aspire societal
and parental condition
natin such a great
and instead
made up
lee solution good
insulin courses
about contact with
ditional read says
is really wall
safety goes on all
on the agency rapist votes against the herd morality
he's doing nothing more serious
aboard like
abandon lunches loudly later today
if there is no moral or paper
there's watch it will all use
hardly if god does not exist then there is no basis for moral accountability
traditionally it's been helping couples all persons morally accountable for
their actions
just fine
unique qualities this life
india scales god's justice will be back
bust of moral choices we make in this lifetime fuse fifty tunnel significance
godless dont
than what basis remains for moral accountability
even if it were objective moral values
duties on your atheism
they seem to be around for because there's no moral accountability
if you'd like to be great
equal delete made spelled
when lip stalin
or at some other tourists
as the russian writer your last i guess ripe instead
if there is no mortality
that always
our permit
given to find out
the really dot
the state torturers and communist prisons
into sort
retired former reports
the cruelty of these is
hard to believe
hassle-free reported through it or the punishment people there is no reason to
be human
there is no restraint from the depths of the evil which is
the communists were to resolve and said
there is no god note here after no punishment for evil
we could do what we which
i had heard one torturers even say
are playing
copy and mike totally
but i hope that it is not what i can express all evil empire
the expressly 'em
believable route
inflicted on chris
to find out to get the active really does not bad
how that
so website someone conclusively may as well just
few ourself
you might say that it's in our best self-interest
to adopt a moral lifestyle
but clearly that's not always true we almost situations which one route two
months back
of self-interest
one is sufficiently powerful like
marcos or a papa doc dot new york mcdonald try
i want to pretty much
inordinate it's actions
and safety but itself belgians
distorting stuart c eastern sums it up twelve dn rights
there is no objective reasons why
entry moral
unless far-out pays off you socialize
makes him feel good there is no objective reasons why i mentioned the
say for the places
to believe that the job does not exist and that there is just another world
would be quite
literally d
former allies
that our moral choices are ultimately insignificant
successful outfit
at that
are alternately the same regardless of what we do
bike demoralization image duration
a moral motivation
its heart to do the right that when it conflicts with your own self-interest
and it's hard to resist temptation to come on desire is strong
and i believe that all too but we can't does not matter what
choose to do
is actress ones morals so undermine
once worldwide
as robert adams observes
and regards very unlikely that history first will not be put on the whole no
matter what dust
seems that
produces cynical sense of futility a baltimore life
undermining once moral rizal
anyone's interests
in moral considerations
since of moral accountability from a philosophy of eight years investment act
of compassion
and self-sacrifice
aho extract
insights plausible without doubt there are no objective moral bad
no object
moral duties and don't world ability
god's therefore vitally necessary four correct
as i said this is a conclusion is accepted by whom he he he was
philosopher such as the check
and start
diluted solution is a painful
these thinkers believe that
house interfaces where
the challenge confronting it just a lot to provide professor acton continues to
cling to objective moral values duties after let go of god's therefore
to explain what was the basis of objective moral happens
eight years
any particular was the basis for the intrinsic value gains
second to explain what is the source of objective moral duties on his what make
certain that obligatory forbidden if there is a world wanted her to come
to explain how
use them
ultimate moral accountability tutsis
or alternatively quite is not necessary four wrapped
well i'm really happy to be here tonight to have the opportunity to discuss this
really work fascinating question
with doctor craig mccaw here
and thanks very much to thailand's very tough for settings top trade for
agreeing to participate conversation
all of my friends high who had been are helping me think about the same right
uh... signaled support
patient part
progress that we've seen made
the question before us tonight is whether god is necessary route
that you might think that this is a question it was necessarily divide here
from eighty state you believe in god must be picked up the stores
orthographic route
and that you don't leave then you must believe that rallies independent
with react
many eighty s agreed with doctor craig dot is necessary
an improvement in the premise that god doesn't exist
that there is no
no objective writer raw
dr rate quoted some of the city's tonight
so instead re are
on the other
this might be surprising to something
like many s
belief that god is not necessary
and at what is right right
so the position that i'm going to be and if the position
marketplace altered
apartment at my position on this issue is immoral highest right
you've got insisting it's perfectly good
position is the position that dot
the reason is that it only rallies indeed
it we can make moral sense
it's only a plurality independent dot
anything world
for reviewing the palestinians
dr transposition can give us the past self-interested reasons for being
it's doctor predisposition dot mom that's destructive rally
but let me back up
maybe some people are surprised just to learn eight yrs ever believer that they
can't believe that there are objective more truths
that they're really moral obligation to moral virtues
i gather that some people think that it simply follows for making isn't that
there is no greater wrong with that
it dot you if god is not exist everything as per minute
but this does not follow
i think he's and i believe that some things are morally something's immorally
numbers contradiction
i believe for example
that it's wrong to drive people from their homes ridiculed because she walked
i believe that it's wrong to enslave
i believe that it's wrong to tortured prisoners of war
they also believe that one sees any of the things going on
one has a suburb moral obligation to try to stop
but do i think these matters are object
yes in at least three cents is objective and it's actually complicated
philosophical issues acted what needs to be objective
your three cents is there
fairly standard
i think that whether something is right or wrong or to take out the crater i
uh... doctor pay directly realistically
first i think that whether something's right wrong does not depend attitudes
in this respect moral judgments are true or false and just the way not important
that's our by correspondent for failing to correspond with the way the world is
so i called the claim that slavery was wrong
is not always when the chocolate it's delicious
backplane simply expresses my head or talked his extremely popular
the judgment of slavery stallings rather like the plane chocolate contains
that's a claim about the with the world's
so i definitely world's specifically about chart
objectivity in this tax
also means that the moral backs are as they are
independently humans human beings knowledge of
we can be irritable acts and we can make mistakes about
some people think that abortion is morally permissible
an obvious denying it
someone here is making a mistake someone's right someone's wrong
notice in contrast nicely chocolates delicious you say no it isn't
we are really disagreeing about the objective features a truck
recently expressing contrary attitudes towards
neither of us is making a mistake
well i take it
trop systems
there's a second sem project in which i think moral back start to active and
that is that they're independent human well
is not up two months to decide what is right what is wrong
in a way that you thought of us to decide what the rules of baseball team
with the traffic laws
we can decide what it is for someone to be a good baseball player because
conditions dad
but not ladies to be a good person
for i hope the morality of objective in the sense that the universal
i not relatives
the fundamental moral facts do not change the culture to culture
nor is the fact that one's culture can go on something
make that paying anyway morally bright
in the examples that i've given about
deliberately chose things that working starkly or are currently
regarded as morally permissible within my own culture
i'm gonna try imbibe policy keep by examples real-life cases consider facing
i don't care if these things are regarded as morally permissible by some
people and repudiate
slavery as well
tortures uh... even at the loss of one's country
now what doctor craig needs to show is that none of these specific moral
judgments where these planes about the nature of moral judgments in general
indeed true austin texas
that seems to me carpal
if got turned out not so six and slavery would be ok there's nothing wrong with
what could possibly make something
the only answer this question i can't think of is that god is but
makes more strip
that the things that are morally good
are the things that god is mandatory source and they're good because it's
mandatory source
mysterious called on mandy
one explain certain things about that
because dialysis independently
acumen being painted
is committed to
we didn't at that time so we didn't invent morale
we can get it out
mistaken about what is morally dot
because god is on the present
internal dismantle flight to our place our people at all times not placed
that's haha
it would follow department erie that moral baxter chapter
the problem is it wouldn't follow that they are
the argument
for this line is a nation twenty-two plato
his style of music
but i don't care principally misconception side socrates
appliance its
are those that are marked by the dot
thirty-five definition ambiguous and asks if perot
acts highest because they're welcome hots
but by the gods because their clients
and what's the difference
all of the first reading is correct
an expert doctor watching those particular acts
it makes them have attacked
the grounds that biases
ties on this alternatives just shot him
something that hot spot
whatever they got satellite ankara abstracts
constipation purpose
preferences on a plan and it did arguments
than the things that are pies change right along with them
in contrast to the second thing
ice packs per person to have a substantive property com
a property in virtue of which the facebook
a property that explains walk
not translate into contemporary terms
depression socrates is asking is this
morally good actions morally good
simply in parts of the fact that favors
because they are independently exp
morally up
mandira corresponds to the first option
itself and be right back
etc dot
that makes morally things morally good things
morally good
that the reason endorsed the second option let's call that any such theory
define independence theory
these theories content on the contrary
but the goodness of inaction is a picture that is independent up
and into seat to the predates god's growing
dot could have manage exception
or the house
but in fact he chooses to boot
ultraviolet man here's and divide hemispheres
intelligence going to be a perfect correspondence between the plan actions
the pac man for the one hand
in the class of actions that are gone
ratatouille adsorption god's perfect now
the two theories differ however on what accounts for this can growers
man jury says it's god's commands explains why the acts are
that's right
it becomes true merely by definition
the documents
hood actions
lettuce on this issue becomes an empty
he has no independent content
divine independence theories on the other hand say that it is a substantive
property of the acts
here blackness
explains why god man
i can't even further and say that if the goodness of the things that god chooses
that next time
guys mime-version choosing only the morally good
independent spirit persons that we have an independent asked that
and that we can use that
to protect and understand what god would prefer
now that's a pretty tired appreciate just how crappy bizarre fine man he
really is
during makes the claim
finance the good into a mere definitional fatality
bachelors from there
this next are really appalling consequences from intuit moral point of
mandy retails that anything at all could be good
or rights for rock making this funny gesture
with party indicate quotation marks
do you think it would cost wants to indicate using these words
with the strange music
define mantri true
it carter to continue the research on
yet to be bright it would be right each our children
the consequences are also pollack religious point of view because define
mathiri classic and have no moral reason for being passed man's
immediately have credential reasons for doing so
stopped disagreed
dot is extremely powerful and certainly esophagus today
at the same can be sent tyrants
and we have no moral optus speaking now ordinary turns to obey tyrants
do you have a moral obligation to do something
the same goes for worshipping
we might find it in our interested flat plate made such a powerful person
but there'd be no way topless dancer appraise victory
him going to object out quite not or at least without since
the reason is not sick
that god's nature is essentially good
and in fact it's also supposed to explain why we ought to pick up my
matured works
but on system
what is it about good about god
that makes him
god's moral properties did not follow snapple powers
is omnipotent service of nations
nor do they follow back in the created the universe for even that he created
it is certainly conceivable
that the creator of the universe
was a powerful intelligent
malicious commands at this hour
if it turned out it is not just in empty ap
that we tested the creator
who were white cap that turns out to be
and it must be at the facts about what is good
are independent of the other facet dot com
it might have to have normative force it must be something understand
of once commanded by some powerful
another thing that defenders that
uh... department reminds is that we can orthodox good
by looking at the kinds of things that he has in fact commander
now i actually think this is a slightly dangerous strategy sisters recent actual
the crimes committed some pretty bad banks for housing market
batsman face a shopping complexes creatures can man's only twice but for
but this week by arsonists point
even the words log and good in this context hatin on normative meetings
heinbuck animals
i think they're delicious
in which case began to have no moral basis for pain
or the words looking good
in which case we once again presuppose
if we can make sense of what is subject to flee good independently but pak
in short it has to be god's goodness tickets agrees to a big question
and not on your back sets
but then goodness has to be substantive property
and not an empty formal term is defined as just whatever way god it's to be
as a matter of fact i doubt that there are many of these people
who really redefine and gary
if there were then there would be you were interpreted copies
surrounding stories the bible
depict dot many things we would ordinarily participle atrocities
some he would say primaries genocides standoff fifteen three
or anti-communism artist liners
document it so it's good
but of course this is not be added to atlas which is people take twenty
most people struggle to make sense of
in like their moral act
at killing innocent children is wrong
ordering a carrot two killers child
even if you don't intend to put them through it
if these attacks are wrong
and god is good
there must be some stay
we must be misinterpreted
dot that's not really met these things
restaurant that what is that he actually did
for this sort interpreted practice to make sense
it must be that we haven't yet received grants we already know four-wheel rico
ask fans
what moral rights is
in all of these cases reflected morally response
which is people
find reason to reject surface readings scripture and other ortega tax
when such tax appeared to attribute to god he takes the conflict with common
sense around
but if defined
here is true
if there's nothing to worldliness concoct preferences
there can be no rationale for seeking alternate reads it morally troubling tax
picking up and morally troubling
about endorsement of slavery or command to vigilante violence or to genocide
because according to department gary
there's no moral standard independently aswell
is only
yet he myself
moral witnesses of property
an expletive uh... out too well
than a c any sense to question reports apparently impl
in short
that's existence is not only not necessary around
it is not na
dot but also be good
for the claim that god is good to me anything
espy uh...
thank you doctor hansen
it's all in the second round i will happen
presentations up ten minutes each and we will begin with doctor craig
now this is still working right okay good
but he's not going to be very very stimulating comments i think that
working for a good exchange tonight
now you recall that he and of my opening speech kind by
you to listen carefully to how doctor entity would address three fundamental
if god does not exist what is the basis for objective moral values
moral duties
and moral accountability
did you notice that dr anthony didn't not addressed any of those issues in her
opening statement nothing which he said
gives us any clues as to what sort of positive attraction whittier
of the bassist for world values moral duties and world accountability
on eight years
what she did instead was to go up the offensive
and argued the moral values
depend upon dot
they must be in japan
that the good is something that is arbitrarily will uh... god
or that that was something that exist independently about
rather that you've had a defendant opening speech disney's beauty
traditionally theorists have taken mainly
that god will something
because ke is good
that has to say
what plato called look good
the moral nature of god himself
goddess by nature
loving con impartial fair trust and so on
sheet list
the paradigm
appointments and therefore the glue it is not independent
moreover got commandments are unnecessary expression obvious moral
nature his commands to a so therefore not arbitrary
practice their reflections of his character
and therefore it makes no sense to ask
if god were to come and ask that you have children
what do you write
duty our children
this proposition hasn't impossible
and therefore no non-trivial truth athletes like
if there were a square circle
when it's area in the square of one of these sites
the question just has no meaningful answer because it's a logically and
not dot granted yes intimation of this third alternative
for she recognizes that the u_s_ will say that god's nature is he sexually
woodstock exactly the point
rather the point yes
the god's nature determines
what used to it
she objects tissue because then we would have no understanding
but what it means to say kat used to it
she says
for the complaint that god is good to me
eat anything the good must be independence about
this objection i think your body's important confusion levy for state what
confusion yes
and explain it
doctor hansen is confusing i think moral ontology
with moral semantics
now twenty by that
well the discipline of moral philosophy is something about it into a number of
different fields for example
moral semantics
steps to me
up moral terms and sentences
morally cus d'amato t studies how uncomfortable knowledge uh... moral
moral ontology studies the metaphysics of morals their foundation entry
when we say that the good is grounded in god
does is impossible odds
about moral values foundation in reality
it is not
a semantic coldplay
about the meeting of the word cooler
completely dr
the semantically gauntness is not bashing puts it and empty formal term
that is defined as
just whatever way godliness
i concur wholeheartedly
that the word but must actually says
be something that we can understand independently what's coming
by a powerful lobby presently
the has typically maintain
but god is the onto a logical foundation
of moral values
without him objective alex would not exist
but the question not maintain the law civil
semantic all uses
the word
these any like
commanded live
if you throw arguments as a false alarm
and therefore logically invalid does nothing to show that moral values cannot
the grounded god
nature determines what is good
his nature expresses itself toward asking the form of divine
which did constitute our moral duties
is this alternative
the doctor hansen show to be impossible not strongman
like dots inventing arbitrarily good
or the goods being something to which got a subservient outside of himself
not without them
linchpin of the pro argument doctor activities
case for objective morality without god
she must be active song
possibly account
uh... to those three questions i quote sold one return to those questions to
review the challenge confronting the eighties
first you've got synopsis wife be objective
moral values would exist
as we saw in the absence of god there's no reason to think that they heard
morality ball quite curious human societies is objectively true
ransom since incredulous she says
if you've got turned out not to insistence slavery would be okay
there'd be nothing wrong with torture
what could possibly make someone believed that
the accident rates that are naturalistic worldview human beings are just animals
and actually the cancerous literate
and torture
is common and naturally the animal kingdom and oc moral
for example
enslaved i think that's till later in the deaths of the actual rather prison
for life advancement out rationality
than empty morality would consider slavery to be morally jobs
remembered our principles tration
of human beings raised under the conditions like the highs
as for torture
had never seen ordinary house cat toward within miles
until it finally force of the sport and kills it
if there is a good god what makes slavery torture among human beings
hounding strange
not natural moral properties come to superbly upon the members of actions of
power species
this questions especially pressing recall those two implications of
namely materialism determinism it's impossible that something that is
essentially a pop up
or a machine
can have if moral dimension
to gets actions
secondly if not does not exist for i think that we have to be objective moral
obligations or prohibitions
the problem here for g yes i think it's very easy to see if there's anybody
to come and or prohibit certain actions
then how can we count moral publications
and probably shifts
all doctor and said he had to sit on his forty s i had an atheist and i believe
that something so morally right and some things are morally wrong where six
well the problem is that there's a contradiction but rather that there's no
basis on the atheistic worldview for the affirmation that something so bright
and summarize to safety experts say i had an atheist and i believe the
is subject to believe delicious
and regular subjectively revolted where's the contradiction
the propagandists that itself contradictory but rabbit a subjective
assertion without any basis
finally on his religious views no moral accountability lta latest apollo
separate model convert nice
got isn't necessary postulate moral res
for only he can guarantee that happiness will be proportion to for cheap
exit onto the or relevance fundamentally when you get this fundamental wat
unsatisfied on his morality is altered leafing tile inconsequential
soak in summary that i think that he was the pro-market histologically invalid
therefore fails to prove that moral values exist independently of god
on the contrary expiry possible that audience and there are no objective
moral values moral duties or moral accountability
and therefore i think we have every region
that god gives vitally necessary to morality
thank you got the cranking out prevented from docking into me
um... well as i expected dot drake is reported to you that there are many a
peace agreement and without contacting rally
absolutely correct
uh... absolutely irrelevant to the topic today
on a_b_c_ recently rejected or because i think michael andrews is wrong richard
dawkins is strong i think that uh...
didn't make their work tactical to c_ span
great britain
uh... because you refused to pay more taxes for war lovely housing
what doctor cotton's shows is something wrong with my position
and you can't do that just fine
but doctor craig needs to show is that nihilism the view that there's no
follows from a case
i haven't seen any other
well there's one art
but its fault
dr craig said that they use must believe that human beings are quote just animals
animals have no moral obligations for each other
uh... elitist view that human beings have no more
they're two separate thousands here
first if it doesn't file from x's and o
that exceeds only now
that is that accepts no properties
undergrad property tax has virtually been
it doesn't even for expression
my dog is an animal season only and she's many other
since many other properties
she is the property being attacked
she has a psychological problem
property being more
feelings have lots of props
younger biological clock
and lots of properties that other human that other animals
or different months we have the capacity to make plans two thousand beauty and to
reflect on our own behavior
these are morally important partners
properties that make us morally valuable pictures in the generate more
that doctor crapes missus pell siebert he had
it doesn't file from the fact that we are made of molecules that we are only
their collections of molecules on their collections of molecules
some other works as a models constitute your objects like rocks
but some positive living sentient beings beats hopes and fears of beliefs and
those collections of molecules because they also have these other properties
are morally import
but the point is simple
what matters to the kind of thing you are is not what you made a rummy at the
same stuff alternately
but rather how all this stuff to me has put together i was organized for four
what's the difference between a piece of copper wire copper point
not to stop
concepts copper bookcases
we can't even imagine very same lump of copper bisbee respect for the first into
wired and melted down and accidental point
the full field organic chemistry access because they're many substances
and very different properties
you know it at the same temple
like or at the meeting and i said
both c for each day
these are some more stick isomers dick rutan kinds or i'd or numbers of
way all reached
penetration of molecules needed to compose a human being is extraordinarily
and gives rise creatures had brains and nervous systems
that assault on capacity
for consciousness
self-consciousness rational thought
for sympathy
and for a sense of justice for capacity to recognize
these very same capacities
in other creatures
in-store have act
zebra stuff happens
sharks don't have
creatures who
these capacities
are creatures spots of passing down
no eight spend all materials
has to accept
if the child is killed by a bomb
quote all that happens is that rearrangement of the molecules studio
saxonhouse doctor crimes are committed to your in doubt
or question
dip anyway
animals have no moral obligations
it means that some people spend our moral obligations
then the arguments invalid
has the same forms this one
some animals cannot talk human beings are animals therefore human beings
cannot talk
bikinis dorling animals have moral obligations to each other
any arctic begs the question it seems that they don't suppose to be group
it human beings are at least samples
and there are cannot
that have a moral obligation to reach a namely us
now hurt roberts most analysts is something that's this week's okay
uh... housing
list of most anticipated sets the moral obligations
business going
uh... animals have no moral significance at all
many of us have the path your pain
and that means that we human beings
who recognize the fact that they can feel
and could appreciate the moral significance the fact that picture
him feel pain
we have a moral obligations toward things
abiotic chocolate at the base route
dr craig said that i must explain the bases that jacket moral values
nine must explain what the source of jected beauties
well i don't have an outpatient were propagated by burden of proof volleyball
here a little bit but
kaplan grounds rejecting an answer to a question
even if i don't have any other it off
considered the question the origins of whitewater
some people think that white was brought here by the number-one aliens
i have good reason to think that this theory as ronald out knowing called
i don't have a plan
doctor crapes theories about the basis of moral true is not theory
that's what you prefer chips
it showed the cops mere existence
is insufficient just groundwork obligation
uni dot byrd dot distances you need for cokie
twenty what
so i can reject doctor crapes theory even if i have no other wario
if he wants to know what about the world makes it true that example what's wrong
worked well
if the objective
rhonda's achi more people
if you want to explanation of why
mrs parker tell us
it's wrong consistent just
it's wrong because it costs me suffering
false conservation step obviously
and acts whether or not access and their sufficient to explain
winds actions along
now it is wrong to kill innocent children
with bombs in order to achieve political all strong right away
whether this is done by st louis
or by the press
most powerful country in the world
such things well costs
the child's best
be costly will cause the child to suck
be costing or carl enlisted outsmart once
for countless other reasons as well
all of these reasons but he says
even dot t_
cargo partner a power exists and is good
thank you casket y
verbatim doing these things
excite exactly the same reasons
there's something objectively true about such actions
explains why dot herpes
with beautiful argument shows is that your documents arbitrary
in which case we have no moral obligation
were it not
and god bless reasons for committing dance
but it does respond to reasons when he issues his commands
and the reasons have to exist independently
a receipt
and what makes more obvious low
uh... one explanations of extorted
very basic there not more obligations unless there's someone there
that seems to be story plane i don't know whether dot great documents not
and thing but certainly perhaps a grunt work for him
beta is supposed to be outlaws environment paper
it with me are all mcad think owns
dot taking additional time
and that is if you have these cannot distinguish between what some of the
great man's engine moral obligations
i can't and they do feel very early age
psychologist elliott's rail
has shown his children between these two three four
recognize that moral rules have forced independently of any particular report
has shown that even children adolescents raised in strict religious traditions
orthodox judaism bosses' and
now mister reform
distinguished morality religious authority
listened to marcia and i have to go to restore interviewer
suppose that god had written in the torah
that you should steal documented auctions to steal videotape and for jews
to steal
interviewer why not
you know it's really offering the person they take it from
we are
we don't have a great
i find this section
really bizarre
dr great criticizes those that used to think that there's nothing to morality
picnic self-interest
after great seagate recently in wichita
he had no your tour animation or help determine or
nine greedy people be reportedly christianson white hit
structure here its entrance
structures resent this go on
artists such assurances to learn the total soprano like at a higher his
that doesn't get your morals that he would want to miss out
in contrast i_c_u_ your everyday people do what's right makes sacrifices wife
not because they expect to be reported fourth not because they're confident
possible try
it's because people eat passionately what they're doing
dr crisis your objective moral townsend duties and you relevant because there's
don't sweat it out to do
east africa dismissing you have not as if people do good things and say i'd
just like to out addicts with the right
i don't think that's puzzling were relevant outlined outline
not listen really thinks the goodness in people are unintelligible site contact
of a quasi contract made with tyrant
within oceans turned out to be synonymous with quality truck
reducing tactically national record at a crime
before i look at the specific arguments again this evening let me read you the
general logic
what's been said tonight
dot granted i have not been he's able to provide escape basis on eight years of
britain thinking big human beings have objective moral value objective moral
duties or moral accountability
orders usage
need to do that because she has this beautiful argument which shows that
moral values cannot depend upon dot and that's where as i said this arguments
the linchpin in her case if that goes
the whole case collapses
now she has not dealt with my third alternative to these perot argument the
youth bro argument is simply false dilemma
the good is there something our bittermann invented by god or something
garson served
the good just because the nature of god himself and expresses itself for us in
the form of mystifying
yes provide technologically coherent basis for objective moral values duties
and moral accountability
the only response you gave him her last
speech was to save the children from the very early stages
are able to recognize
moral values and moral duties without
any traineeship work
this is ingrained into a spy biological
uh... evolution
as well as parental condition steven pinker who is uh... psychologist harvard
university in an article in january this year
has written a following
he says the scientific outlook as far as that some parts of our subjective
are products of our biological make
and had no objective counterpart in the world
the tasty nasa fruit in the problem was a character
the stereotypes of heights in the previous of flowers are pictures of our
nervous system
and of course theses had evolved in a different ecosystem
or were missing a few jeans our reactions to go the other way
the distinction between right and one desconco a product of bread
why should we believe that it is getting more real
and it is just a collective hallucination
how could we argued that he was like genocide against slavery are wrong for
everyone rather than just distasteful to us
peter has no solution to this problem and therefore adoption not objected to
spew morality
doctor anthony wright five said you morally appoint as to why
but the question is why on his appointment naturalism newspaper wrong
and doctor hansen right it seems to me to your commitment to objective moral
values and duties which i applaud
is simply a faith commitment it's a faith commitment of a naturalist for
the naturalist worldview provides no onto logical foundation
what i'm offering is not a different set of moral values
but a foundation for those moral values
that we both cold here
and cherish but which is lacking
naturalistic worldview
reporter objective in moral values would exist in the absence of god we saw
there isn't i'm
naturalism any basis for affirming intrinsic value
committees as opposed to other species she says
well i think dawkins andrews and others are are wrong well right but y
partly wrong rapid doctor yesterday she said well human beings have
more properties interesting animals
lots of different property some of which are moralistic
what i've read they certainly do apple dropped but that's not the question
the question is flight want they have moral properties f
there were no shop
she says well human beings are very complex organisms they have
a self consciousness rationality
fine why it is that investment with moral about whites that make him
morally fat people
take for example of the copper wire akattak forty
the copper point has all sorts of different properties in the copper wire
intrinsically and objectively the copper coins has not worked out
than the copper wire taps
it's a social convention of human beings
that we use the coins
but intrinsically it's no more valuable between you seashells
four point it's a subjective
viewpoint of human beings in the question is why wilson
morality like that on the
why i think the creatures that have self-consciousness rationality are uh...
inherently valuable indeed we sought to get the evolutionary conditions were
creatures like last night while quite different sorts of rationality are
wrapping up rationality of of morality
moreover what about human beings of light self-consciousness or
uh... rationality what about p does end up in a coma horror unconscious or
mentally retarded
uh... personal moral basis for their intrinsic human word
on this proposal the doctor
entity offers
so given especially determinism
andy physical ism obviously view i can't see any reason to think that this
particular species
has to sort of objectivity she imagines
secondly without god why i think that there can be objective moral duties
she says well it's wrong to do certain things because the cost of suffering
but strong because green
two members of the human
species of course we think that's wrong
but if there were intelligent uh... guinea pigs or or answer other species
date within their morality subjective i don't see any reason to think
because suffering
to members of human species is something that is
objectively wrong aunty yes
hi i just don't see basis for this on naturalistic worldview
as michael response i think it's very interesting article is great wrong on
we can easily imagine race of extraterrestrial beings who are rational
persons with self-consciousness
for whom great would not be
morally wrong he says all holding the morality of grade as a human constant we
cannot thereby assume there will be a constant for other organisms including
extraterrestrial intelligent organist
certainly locals that'll work
we see tax which looked very much like report for on a regular basis
and the sisterhood biological reasons for why this person
animal kingdom
so again it just seems to be dot granted is guilty of an unjustified biased
toward iran species
finally without god there is no moral accountability she says
credit is looking for eighty self-interested recently moral
it's not good will reach tool
on the contrary
the theory of ethics and if indeed we do have
moral reasons will be
dot use the ultimate hoodies pants website therefore right
and therefore we have a
moral obligation to open it up
but the advantage that i'm offering is that on
the b_s_t_ face ethics
moral choices are significant
they make a difference they have
a consequence to the they've made simple to the removable resolve the issue
ultimately mankind and all of us are doomed to perish in the heat depth of
the universe
ultimately it does not matter whether we live morally or not it makes knowlton
difference to the final outcome
or our fate and therefore morality comes ultimately empty
and funeral
on eight years in other words
prudential interests
one contrary to moral interests often on t_b_s_
but obviously prudential valued moral climate control inside
and run together
and it didn't work and collect
that could be moral and physical trouble
prudential interestingly ultimately will be in your potential interest to up to a
in the long run
so i think that the use of offers below
uh... prudential douglas post-world value whereas on eight years of
there simply is no
ethical all too much significance and find out the exact world
uh... i'm puzzled by v contention dr craig add-on
moral differences are significant make a difference in my not
on i'd just dancing with the argument that clinton is i think it makes
enormous debt
sticks in your best efforts to cities on plan
what used to do about will work
i think it makes an extraordinary differences sentient creatures all over
the planet
worker winter we continue or
uh... i don't understand what more objective basis there could be
for the prohibition against causing needless suffering
and the fact that they're creatures on this planet they're capable of something
i don't see any more fundamental explanation possible
but i think it's a little bit about uh... more about the accountability
business i still get the feeling doctor traces its invention his view
that the potential in the world recent scans outside when he started out
something always outside
uh... why that's not my experiences things my experience of things is that
sometimes it's very hard
defeated the for to do what's right
and that choice is that people who would decide to do that all of them more
uh... because it's difficult
uh... ads for the unjustified bias against uh... bias for species
classrooms the cc
i made a point of saying that we have obligations toward other species it's
not it's not what your phylogeny is it's not real what evolutionary uh... uh...
granted him off
it's your characteristics aren't the kind of creatures it's capable of
feeling pain
if you're the kind of preaches if you don't pay on and drama
and if you have the rational
passively to recognize that you're doing the creature that feels pity and rob
you will see rationally that you off not to contact me to pain at that hero
uh... now one thing that i think doctor craig continue seeking using talk so
that we should
is the question of winter moral sensibility com program we get this
moral facts
that's a very interesting question i think it's an evolutionary psychologists
have some interesting things to say
uh... have some uh... wrong ideas about things
there's a very few question
it's not the same question is what makes a great wrong
it's i think michael uh... i think darwin speculation is is hyperbolic
imagines that's placed behind but are we might be safer like these
we don't have much of the way the breakaway east most of our brains
devoted to finding honey and finding actor communicate that to the rest of
our private
but if if we were human beings in the mid to high price situation that would
be a social reform that might dictate different kinds of uh...
responsibilities at different conceptions of
property rights and so forth
that they would still be some fundamental facts
were sentient creatures and have the capacity to recognize that there are
other sentient creatures on the planet that generates the application to not
possible suffering
on working on this this is about providing a basis for morality
we are gonna play burden of proof volatile here
explain is that i can not provide an interactive basis for rally
injected basis for our would be a fact about the world that's true
independently what needs to leave about the world
and that is true universally across the planet
there are plenty of such objective facts
the most important work for granted around is the facts that since the
factor creatures that be ok
another fact it's very important is that they're creatures
who have goals who can seconds for themselves
wanting a preachers who can say instance cells
then uh... creatures who have right to pursue them since
that's what makes the case that you should not interfere with people's
liberty on how much of a very good reason
and then finally the capacity uh... irrational to pass the have
understand these facts about it
now what doctor craig has to show is that if god didn't exist
not stacks would make any difference
it's one thing to say here's another possible basis you have a perfectly good
in the universe dishes connects
that's what's also faces
shut down my face is is inadequate
i think so
always act is that the basis that i'm talking about
is that this is the surtax involved in some actual process
why does that make them not facts i don't understand it
he says they could involve differently but it turned out differently it's true
we might not have been sent to you
that would it would not change the moral back between
predicts that g creatures we ought to be not causing
it wouldn't change that daschle back
it would change uh... the actual facts about how we are house
on so i'm not a species i think that any creature that any creature needed by its
very robots develops sentence
uh... then we would have an obligation to cause them
any rational creature on the planet is preacher we have certain kinds of or or
sorry the universe
is a creature
to whom we have on
uh... responsibilities
okay let me say something too about the about these different foster
where but plainview approach to show that the mir existence uh... certain
accounts abun pass opt out
to to command next mere existence of such a case nine
and i think doctor craig and i reads it what you need to add
is that the is cool that
accidents active more back that's it
the other facts about the
now you have two choices here
on and doctor craig is right to distinguish not logical question
semantic question implications for each other
fifty choices leaders sat
unwanted i'm going to characterize it being a quick to point to that day
and i'm going to set
the nature of that he is
that's what might
now that's that's the first week of fright interpretation that's as it
doesn't matter what the jacket back so it doesn't matter what that the lights
it doesn't matter acting man's
whatever the nature of that being if that's good
another way of saying it is
here's the when you look at the choice that means nate went to look at uh...
mans that being
and on the basis of the characteristics of those names of those choices
i will tell you whether it's a good day
and some of the following possibility
there is a universe that is created by a very powerful very intelligently
and is very powerful intelligent being decides to populate the universe
with on sentient creatures
and his biscayne on things that would be terribly music but the sentient
difficult situations
rattling around like flies like lol cables life not wait to see everything
discuss all this is a setback breweries very very please
i think that we would all agree it back
factory here
p only thing different between that deer doctor craigs
is the exact that price and stir constants a moral property
both of us have to say that there are fundamental moral facts
i think the moral facts for the facts that we make conditions that generate
obligations and applications
and that those very same acts artifacts that enable us to say with substance
and if your religious with time
and respect pecans
we have one last round of
five minutes each
in my closing statement let me try to draw together some of the threads of the
debate and see if we can come to some conclusions
first dozens of the floor negate any recently thinking that moral values
cannot be grounded dot
well i think not
dr anthony admits that divine command fury does give an objective basis for
for additional art
was however that they wouldn't be moral in character
but detective
who got his job is
the greatest conceivable b
dot isn't being witches were in the worship
and therefore god must be
morally perfect and therefore morally
were immediate worship it is not the greatest conceivable begin cannot be
and therefore this beats the arbitrariness objection that she has
twenty seven
whatever the nature of the desi explode
the concept of god
i think details
that god is morally perfect that it is a being worthy of worship so this gives us
a ground for moral values that is both objective and of moral
by contrast i simply can't see why i activist world view we should think
this primate
creature that has evolved down here on the planet earth's lost somewhere in the
is the source of locus of objective moral values rather than a decade
delusions of moral randhir
first without god why i think the human beings have objective moral value
on doctor and to the activity say here is it simply
want to cause
pain and suffering too
a rational sense you'd creature
uh... and that's for stopping point while agree yes it is wrong but while
actually understands why would think it would be wrong if he is a mystery
he would be are for succeed bills properties best and where
uh... moral significance there is an increase of the day
army views
uh... properties of moral value our moral rightness woodsy beat up on this
particular creature
uh... or one uh...
properties of rationality and self-consciousness
she says well there's a difference between grasping moral values and the
existence of moral values i certainly think that's true even if it
the evolutionary account
is true of how we come to press for a balanced because they're grounded in god
i think that gives us objectivity
but what i can see a swipe on his cheek you moral values would be anything more
than just he's subjective delusions which of the standoff
of the socio pilot trickle
evolutionary process we can certainly imagine different moral values have been
produced by that same process
and it's hard to support one set would be
objectively true rather than the other
what about the second point which i think i'll go out there are no objective
moral duties i think this is a special evening pointedly is because
the notion of obligation or prohibition
someone to be issued those imperatives
the notion of being applied for forbidden to do something
has fights three nature of the notion of moral characters which are given to us
but on a use of the useful source of moral obligation or imperative and she
says well there's simply nothing more fundamental
band the pain
ought not to be
cause flow wide pain
is caused by other animal species all the time and in the animal world wide
human the eggs
chasen's will creatures that have
the ability to set hands
have the right to pursue those sections where did that come from
word that right come from
and why is it wrong to prohibit them from uh... going after those hands on
eight years of you don't have any source for moral to your obligation army is
because there is a moral whatever finally without doubt there is no moral
accountability i think we agree on this point
that on atheism
no one holds you morally accountable for what you do by charges that that makes
morality empty invention ultimately
it makes no difference she says but of course it makes a difference to send
your like owner political warm and look at the question of war
those are nothing but short term transitory
changes alternately different science tells us that ultimately
s universities to expand
people all parish
in the universe humanity
matter itself
ke all will be extinguished
uh... thermodynamic equilibrium is all cute when van
naturalistic worldview
so that alternately really makes no difference how do you live moral grounds
world duties become like shuffle a deck chairs on the titanic your hand is the
same no matter what you do by contrast
uh... yes i think it's morally braces because it gives us the sound foundation
for morality which has consequences and therefore it is not
obtain people gesture in an empty needs users
let's make a distinction between two forms of remorse sins
you know carpenter imperfect fiction
department contrition you're sorry because you are did something old and
your intermittent reaching your only sorry that you're free hunched
on it's ok and perfect contrition
apke uart out but perfect contrition
i was taught was much better
uh... because it bespeaks the best possible notice repentance not fear
society what's right
now as a young catholic grow i always felt that my own contrition fell short
regard tried to focus on hearing people on my sins
i found myself but he said about what might possibly here
weekdays explains
tease the cap
when you when i was in college
i felt like a plan
and i was struck by reversing site
the perfect interaction
benigni eager to might finally be cheap by became eight yes
if i didn't believe in god and he return managed heartbeat any
if fifty five
non-believer cup after having done something rocket only costly was wrong
much involving except my reasoning is that part
may is always the only way to achieve perfect contrition only psychologically
possible way
for alittle selfish human beings to put aside concerns for ourself
if you bring your state
and wouldn't adopt one
what was going
you more pleased with preachers who saw what was good for its own say
and rico's and personal itself only or paper
why i say did not per contraction
disobedience clearly displeases got that one if the mere fact
disobedience ecstasy possible god was not one of those penny tyrants like
incurring school teachers our principals who issue artery financing provisions
just for the exercise just delighted any other person get precious metals
no included dot whilst what is right
on the west breitbart who works for
disobedience defense because this is the intelsat
it's the right instead
do it
it's the goodness
not dot
hi is doing what's pleasing to the gods
doing good and being
strike but must please involving his son and husband because it's great because
you have received what using because you can't separate cell
not the prices it right
eight years if they commit themselves to justice two pieces of the suffering
calling your cell right
eighties have the opportunity practiced perfect
now all that's democratic close by conceding a couple of significant things
doctor kary
there are things that you lose when you get out belief in god
morality is not one of them
i don't understand what data bases there could be for the duty not to cause pain
and at the art teachers exile
and that alerts
you have a route
but here are some things you do have to get out there not insignificant
you lose a guarantee of redemption
supposedly something morally terrible something for which you cannot make
something perhaps which no human being expected forgive
i'd imagine that the promise made by many religions that god will forgive you
appear to be sorry
that that might bring enormously
and comfort
you can't have it
as a consequence as an atheist
you must live your life
and make your choices with the knowledge it every choice you make contributes in
one way or another
only down you're white
dr craig things that he isn't true human choices would be insignificant
i think just the reverse i think they become surpassing
the second thing is this relinquished his confidence that it will all work out
moral causes
frequently seemed to be
lost costs
and it takes enormous courage and commitment to continue to struggle
without anywhere actual hopkins wednesday efforts will be bored
there's a higher more praiseworthy state of mind to be able to continue to act
that promise of success
with only the comfort that one is doing what we can to make things better
yet citation tiki bay
you can't consequently all marked
is i think a profound expression hotbeds in the moral capacities possibilities
the fact is that tragedy
human lives
can be
civilizations can be destroyed
not bank guaranteed
these things warm up for
not are lending
with it
all we have is this world
this life
ourselves anytime ants optimize me backbeat
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