Ancient Egyptian Archives

Uploaded by WafeekWahby on 20.04.2012

♪ [music playing-- no dialogue] ♪♪
>> Dr. Allen Lanham: Well, good morning and
welcome to Booth Library and our continuation
of our series on ancient Egypt.
We are midway through our course and we have a delightful program
this morning from our university archivist, Robert Hillman,
and to continue looking at the various facets of life during
and after the ancient Egyptians.
So, Dr. Wafeek Wahby of course, the coordinator.
>> Dr. Wafeek Wahby: Good morning and thank you
for coming to this session of the "Futuristic Look
Through Ancient Lenses" and I like what you said a minute
ago, that this is the nearest you can get to Egypt at
this time, so I hope you enjoy your trip.
You want to know anything about Eastern Illinois University
history, here is the man.
I ask him about anything, any information that you want to
know, 100 years, more than 100 years ago, any pictures,
any image--he has amazing memory and amazing resources,
so thank you very much for accepting to present.
>> Mr. Robert Hillman: Well, first of all,
I don't want to set myself up as being an expert
on Egypt because I'm definitely not.
I'm learning just like quite a few other people, this month,
about Egypt and I've been there, which is more than some people
have done, but otherwise, I'm not an expert at all.
In a way that the term archives is defined today--I'm not going
to go into definitions--at least by the professionals,
the ancient Egyptians left few archives behind as to
the kind of things we have today in archives.
Most of the [unclear dialogue] written records,
concerning the conduct for their affairs for example,
did not survive over time.
Also, most of the written records pertaining to the
functioning of the kings, the administrators, priests, nobles,
merchants, all that kind of thing,
most of it did not survive.
There's some examples of things that
did survive but, for the most part, it didn't.
However, what I will argue is that because of the
extraordinary measures taken by the ancient Egyptians to
preserve, for all eternity, certain things
certain aspects of their culture.
The things that they did leave behind, survived for all these
centuries because of the measures that were taken.
And that these things constitute a rich archives, indeed,
in place of the kind of things that we think of today as
archives--the writings or the scribes, the wall carvings on
the temples, the paintings in the tombs, the sculptures, both
large and small, and other objects of of physical
culture--all these things together constitute the true
archives of ancient Egypt.
They provide deep insights into the cultural, historical,
religious and secular life of the people.
That's all we have but, in some ways, it's enough.
Thought you might like to see this picture.
It's a little bit grainy, but you can sort of get the idea.
Some eager travelers here trying to learn about
Egypt in three days.
>> male audience member: [unclear dialogue].
>> Mr. Hillman: On the left, yes I will admit.
That's my sister and my mother--the three of us took
this trip to Egypt.
>> male audience member: When was that?
>> Mr. Hillman: Twenty-nine, well,
almost 30 years ago.
Next March it'll be 30 years.
So we had a lot of fun, we learned a lot, but were not
there nearly long enough.
It's hard to overestimate the importance of scribes in
depicting and preserving, for the future,
the culture of ancient Egypt.
So I'd like to talk for a little while about them.
It's my view that the scribes were the true archivists of
ancient Egypt.
This slide shows a drawing of a scribe at work,
and [unclear dialogue].
Also shown are some of the tools of the trade--all of those are
ceremonial versions of them--and an example hieroglyphics and
then another example of a more cursive style of hieroglyphics.
And the next slide shows a sculpture that the previous
drawing was, no doubt, made from because it's almost identical.
The sculpture was 2700 to 2100 BC, really old.
It looks very modern to me.
This one's carved from a stone called grey rock, and the
sculpture is of a seated scribe and it dates from 1400 BC,
not long before the time of King Tutankhamun.
I got several pictures here of sculptures of scribes.
This one is made of granite, it dates from 2400 BC,
during the Old Kingdom.
It depicts an actual scribe, a person known as
[unclear dialogue].
This one's carved out of a block of granite around 1300 BC,
again about the time of King Tutankhamun.
The sculpture also depicts an actual scribe known as Haremhab.
And this was carved from a stone on a schist,
and it dates from about 580 BC.
This sculpture also portrays an actual person, a scribe named
[unclear dialogue].
I'm not getting these names right, I'm sure,
but that's my version of the names.
This one is, was carved out of wood, and about 1300 BC, and
this piece shows the royal scribe Amenemopet on the left,
and his wife whose name was Hathor.
And around the base of it, a hymn to the god Amun-Re was
inscribed at the pedestal.
This is a relief carving from a tomb dating to about 1300 BC,
and it also depicts an actual person.
He was a royal scribe named [unclear dialogue],
the brother of King Tutankhamun's treasurer.
He's shown wearing the elaborate court attire of the New Kingdom.
This one is a relief carving from a mastabah, or tomb.
It dates from about 2500 BC and this piece shows three scribes
at work painting hieroglyphics on papyrus scrolls.
From these images I think you can begin to appreciate the
importance of scribes in ancient Egypt.
Some even became prominent enough to have their images
carved in expensive stones that had to be hauled hundreds of
miles, and to be buried in elaborately
decorated tombs of their own.
So they were very prominent, some of them were very rich and
very influential and held other offices other than scribe.
Less than 1 percent of the people in ancient Egypt were
literate, so these scribes were indeed among the privileged
people in the country.
Also, there was quite a hierarchy of scribes, and so
they had apprentices and experienced scribes, master
scribes and royal scribes, and the latter categories of people
probably mostly supervised the work of others, but they came
with lots of experience to their positions.
Scribes were quite often the son of a scribe, so from one
generation to the next, they were all scribes--one after the
other over hundreds of years' time.
This picture is from a museum display obviously and it's a
collection of palates and brush holders used by the scribes
during the Old Kingdom, so these date from about 2500 BC or so.
Red and black were the predominant pigments used,
although other colors were sometimes employed.
And this one looks just like the other ones, and this dates from
1100 or about 1000 BC.
About 1500 years newer than the previous example, so you can see
that apparently the scribes and the ancient Egyptian technology
didn't improve very fast.
It continued the same century after century after century in
some cases.
This slide shows an apprentice scribe's practice board.
It's wood and they could whitewash it and practice their
hieroglyphic characters.
This dates from about 2000 BC.
We saw these pictures right at the beginning.
This is the ceremonial brush holder from Tutankhamun's tomb,
and the importance of royal scribes was recognized by
Egyptian kings to the extent that they are placed in the
afterlife of the rulers [unclear dialogue].
Some of the kings may not themselves have been literate,
relying instead on their scribes and priests for preparing the
way for them in a time to come and for perpetuating their
stories for future generations.
This of course is a shot of the famous Rosetta Stone--part of
it--and along with an image of the man, a French linguist,
Jean-Francois Champollion, who was given credit for finally
deciphering the Rosetta Stone.
It's inscribed in three different languages.
The stone was discovered in 1799 by Napoleon's army in the
village of Rashid, a name that was Europeanized as "Rosetta".
Many ancient structures were later desecrated, so this was
one of the stones that had been part of another building at some
point, and it was found centuries later
in this small village.
The Rosetta Stone provided scholars with the essential
clues for interpreting hieroglyphic script, and thus
helped bring the story of ancient Egypt to life.
Here's the actual Rosetta Stone, and it's in the British Museum,
as we learned earlier in one of the other presentations.
It's made of granite and it measures about
2 feet by 4 feet, roughly.
It dates from the reign of Ptolemy V,
[unclear dialogue] about 196 BC.
Originally part of an ancient temple, as I mentioned, the
stone was inscribed with roughly the same message in
hieroglyphics, Demotic, and Greek.
Okay now I'm going to talk for a while about papyrus
and a few other things related to that, but before I do,
I've got some examples of papyrus here to pass around.
These are contemporary papyri, of course, but there's quite
an industry in Egypt of selling these kind of things
to the tourists, so I've got a few samples there
for you to look at.
Papyrus was very integral to the lives of the Egyptians, Egyptian
people, and it figured largely in their artwork,
their sculpture, their architecture,
their cultural identity and their commerce
with other civilizations.
I've read somewhere that they think they might have even,
at one time, tried to figure out how to eat it.
I don't think it was necessary because they had a rich granary
supply in that country, but there was a thought that they
tried to figure out how to cultivate it for food, too.
This wall painting is from the tomb of Menna, of a hunting
scene in a papyrus thicket, and it dates from about 1400 BC.
This is one that was painted or done as a wall painting, 1600 or
1500 BC, and it's from Amarna and it depicts, obviously, ducks
in a papyrus swamp--similar to the other one, less elaborate.
Consider probably one of the most realistic depictions of
Tutankhamun, this wood and stucco sculpture shows
the head of the boy king.
What's interesting to my little discussion here is that it's
perched on top of a papyrus stalk.
They could've mounted it on anything, but they put it on top
of a papyrus stalk, so that's another indication of how
important they thought that plant was to them.
This one is made principally of ivory.
It's a perfume jar from the tomb of Tutankhamun,
and it has papyrus-shaped handles on this side
and lotus-shaped handles on the other side.
We saw [unclear dialogue] at the beginning too.
This is a papyrus, ceremonial papyrus burnisher, and it was
placed in the tomb along with other tools.
They're sort of ceremonial, but they wanted to be sure that the
scribes in the afterlife had their tools of their trade.
And what this was used for, when they made the papyrus--after the
papyrus was woven together--they would take burnishers and real
finely mesh the reeds together, and I'm not an expert on the
technology of it, but apparently the papyrus I'm showing is
much cruder than the version that they would have had
back when they used it as paper
and marketed all over the ancient world.
In real life, the laborers used much more utilitarian burnishers
to press together and smooth the surface of the woven papyrus
reeds to create a suitable writing surface.
For centuries, Egypt produced large quantities of papyrus,
which was used for its own needs and as a major export product
to trade for luxury goods and materials
not available in their own country.
This photo shows the elaborately decorated coffin of a woman
named Nesi-Khonsu--the enchantress of Amun-Re she was
called--and this dates from the 9th century BC.
Depicted on the interior of her coffin are scenes from
"The Book of the Dead," but also there's papyrus motif
and it's used constantly in the tomb paintings and coffins--
it's just a very recurring symbol.
Dating from about 1040 BC, this is one of the opening scenes of
"The Book of the Dead" of Nany, a woman in her 70's which is
pretty rare, to be 70-years-old, that age in ancient Egypt.
Books of the Dead were also referred to sometimes as
"Books of Coming Forth By Day".
The papyrus scroll on which the panel was
painted was found in her tomb.
On the left of the scene stands Osiris,
the god of the underworld and rebirth.
The deceased has placed an offering for Osiris on a small
table, and stalks of papyrus separate the two images.
This is one of the principle images of the scroll found in
Nany's tomb.
The entire scroll measures more than 17-feet long, unrolled.
The scene depicted here shows the climax
to the journey of the afterlife.
Nany is in the hall of judgment, holding her mouth and eyes
in her right hand.
And behind her stands the goddess Isis,
and in this scene Nany's heart is being weighed
for its truthfulness.
Operating the scale is a jackal-headed god Anubis,
who's the overseer of mummification.
In the end, according to the hieroglyphic inscription--which
of course, I can read, you know--Anubis announces to Osiris
that Nany has been found worthy of entering the afterlife,
to which Osiris replies "Give her her eyes and her mouth
since her heart is an accurate witness".
This papyrus is from "The Book of the Dead" from a scribe named
Ani, dating from about 1200 BC.
The scene depicts Ani's funerary boat with the mummy stretched
out on a bed, and below that the Canopic vessels, jars,
containing Ani's liver, lungs, stomach and intestines.
They were removed from the body and mummified along with
the rest of the body, and they separated them
and put them in these Canopic jars.
The text below the scene recounts the journey that Ani is
undertaking to the afterlife.
Dating from about 1300 BC, this papyrus painting is from
"The Book of the Dead" of Hunefer, and that's the theme
of my t-shirt by the way--in case you get the
chance to look at it later.
In this scene, Anubis, the overseer of mummification
--here--is introducing the deceased to
the weighing of the heart.
And here's still another version of that same scene.
This is, dates from about 1250 BC and it shows how important
this particular, this was sort of the climax scene of the books
of the dead because that's what determined whether the person
was worthy or not, and probably there aren't any that weren't
worthy because they wouldn't have had a big thing made about
them and buried in a big tomb and everything.
Dating from about 1000 BC, this scene is from the papyrus scroll
"Book of the Dead" from the tomb of
Henuttowy, musician priestess of Amun-Re.
This scene shows the naked figure of Henuttowy and Thoth,
the god of wisdom and writing, who is represented as a baboon.
Both figures are paying homage to the solar disc containing the
sacred eye as it rises over the mountains.
Dating from about 1500 BC, this papyrus panel shows
Queen Hatshepsut, but she's dressed as
the goddess Isis, and with the god Osiris.
The inscription is written in a modified form of hieroglyphics,
which was faster for the scribes to execute.
And we saw this sample last night.
This papyrus sheet shows an even more
cursive script known as hieratic.
It's thought to be the world's oldest--this particular one is
thought to be the oldest surviving surgical document,
written in about 1600 BC.
The text describes anatomical observations and diagnoses
and treatment of a variety of medical problems.
In addition to hieroglyphics, scribes were often expected to
be literate in hieratics, which was used in non-ritual,
non-religious, more routine documents.
Okay, I want to turn for a moment to a discussion of the
ancient Egyptian temples.
Very short.
We've seen quite a bit of these before in the course of this
symposium, so I won't dwell too much on it, but it's good to
remember that many temples did not survive over time.
They were cannibalized for their billing materials,
a lot of them were and so some of the ones remaining are
the fairly newer ones, in some cases.
There's a few older ones that do.
Of the many temple views that could be shown,
I'll present only a few.
Typically, the temples were covered in hieroglyphics,
from top to bottom--the walls, the pillars, the ceilings--
and you've got a good example of it in the program,
where everything that you can see in the picture basically
was covered by hieroglyphics.
These inscriptions served to glorify the particular deity
that was being honored by the temple and also the pharaoh's
embodiment of that god's qualities.
The view shown here is the main approach to the Luxor Temple,
built during the reign of Ramses II, or Ramses the Great,
in the mid-13th century BC.
The temple is guarded by an obelisk dedicated to Ramses
and two colossal statues of him depicted as the god Osiris.
This scene is from the courtyard of
Ramses II, inside the Luxor Temple.
And this slide shows the colossal statue of Ramses II at
the entrance to the processional colonnade at the Luxor Temple.
Note the hieroglyphics, as I mentioned,
some of which is fallen off, around the base and the throne.
Built during the 15th century BC, this slide shows the main
corridor through the Temple of Amun at Karnak,
which is very close to Luxor.
On the left is the obelisks dedicated to Queen Hatshepsut,
and on the right is the obelisk of Thutmose I.
This slide shows the rock-cut temples of Ramses II
on the left, and Queen Nefertari on the right,
and these are at Abu Simbel, quite a ways south in Egypt,
in the 13th century BC.
This is close-up of one of the features in this temple here.
This photo is of a colossal statue at the temple of Hathor,
Nefertari's temple.
What is clearly visible here, as at all of the temples, is a
powerful message and the message is sent by the sculptural works,
as well as the splendid hieroglyphic inscriptions
conveying important messages for future generations.
It was the royal scribes who wrote these message on the
temples and supervised the artisans who carved them in
stone, thus the scribes were, in a sense, archivists,
as well as artists and craftsmen.
Now I'd like to talk a little bit about the
tombs of ancient Egypt.
We've seen this before in the course of our symposium--this is
the famous step pyramid of the pharaoh Djoser at Saqqara,
about the 27th century BC.
It's a central figure of a vast mortuary complex surrounded by
ceremonial structures.
The first Egyptian pyramid ever to be built,
this pyramid originally stood about 203 feet tall.
It's eroded away to some extent, but it was clad in polished
white limestone originally.
This structure is considered to be the earliest monumental
cut stone building in the world.
Inscriptions inside the tomb name the king as Netjerykhet,
or something like that.
Djoser was the name that was used centuries later to refer to
this pharaoh.
In addition to being a grave for the ruler, the purpose of the
pyramid was to facilitate a successful afterlife for
the king so that he could be eternally reborn.
Therefore the scribes and artisans who decorated the
interior took pains to document the king's life,
and to justify his worthiness for eternal afterlife.
Interestingly, they even documented and preserved,
for all time, the name of the pyramid's architect,
a man named Imhotep who, as I learned last night,
was also a physician.
So it's just incredible what kinds of things did survive even
for 4,000 or 5,000 years, just amazing.
Within walking distance of the Step Pyramid of Saqqara is the
Pyramid of Unas, who reigned during the 5th Dynasty in the
24th century BC.
This photo shows the excavated [unclear dialogue] leading up to
the pyramid, as well as the pyramid itself, which has
deteriorated far more than the older one, the Step Pyramid.
This photo, which was taken inside the Pyramid of Unas,
has walls that are completely covered in hieroglyphics
and relief carvings.
Like the Step Pyramid, the inscriptions here are designed
to perpetuate the life of the king and to ensure his safe
entry into an eternal afterlife.
Clearly the scribes were busy even at this early period,
and they were largely successful in their
endeavor to immortalize their king.
In modern times, when the burial chamber was finally entered,
about 1881, very little remained of the contents--grave robbers
had long ago gotten there first--but the all-important
inscriptions had survived as the archives.
This photo shows the burial chamber in the tomb for, built
for a man named Sennefer in about 1450 BC at Thebes,
which is not far from Cairo.
Highly decorated with artwork as well as inscriptions,
and of course "The Book of the Dead," this is the tomb of a
powerful administrator, but he wasn't a pharaoh himself.
He was the highly trusted aide to Amenhotep II.
Sennefer held many offices simultaneously, including--or
what we might call a mayor of the city of Thebes--the
chancellor to the pharaoh, the overseer to the fields and
granaries of Amun, the high priest of Amun.
Through his many offices, he became rich, powerful and highly
respected, and his tomb surely provides ample
evidence of his influential life.
This is a view of The Valley of the Kings and Queens, located
across the Nile from Luxor, and there's a lot of other views
that could be taken from further away that maybe gives more of
an idea of what the mountains were like there but
this is one I chose.
Dating from about 1300 BC, this scene is
from the tomb of Ramses I.
He was the founder of the 19th Dynasty and the grandfather of
the powerful Ramses II.
This scene shows the pharaoh flanked by Horus,
god of the sky, and Anubis, god of mummification.
The tomb is located in The Valley of the Kings.
Dating from the 12th century BC, this slide shows the elaborate
hieroglyphic inscriptions covering the walls of the tomb
of Ramses IV, in The Valley of the Kings.
This one shows wall paintings from tomb of Ramses VI,
dating from the 12th century BC.
Inscriptions and paintings from the sarcophagus chamber,
this wall depicts "The Book of the Earth," including the
re-emergence of the sun from the Earth.
This photo is the modern day entrance to the tomb of
King Tutankhamun, who reigned for a brief time in
the mid-14th century BC.
At the time of my visit here, some 30 years ago,
throngs of tourists were still allowed inside of the tomb.
I think they have more restricted entrance now.
And of course, this is the iconic mask of Tutankhamun,
which covered the mummy and this is sort of like one of
the main symbols of Egypt.
It's used throughout, through all kinds of decorative motifs.
I've seen it in person two or three times in exhibits,
and I saw it in the museum in Cairo.
Made of solid gold, inlaid with bands of lapis lazuli,
carnelian, quartz, obsidian, turquoise and colored glass.
In a way, even though it's an object, it's an archival piece
because it tells so much about ancient Egypt,
as do some of these other pieces I'll be showing you.
This is a photo of the elaborate pendant found on the mummy
of King Tutankhamun, displaying the so-called
"Eye of Horus" which was often used as a protective amulet.
King Tutankhamun's ceremonial scepter, made of sheet gold
beaten on a wooden core.
This shaft is in the form of a papyrus flower and stem,
and it's embellished at each end with a feather design
[unclear dialogue] and inlaid with carnelion, turquoise,
lapis lazuli, [unclear dialogue] and glass.
The inscription reads, in part--I don't know how they
could get all of this in that inscription--but
"The good god, the beloved, dazzling of face like Aton
when it shines, the son of Amun, living forever".
This is a decorative box in the shape of a cartouche,
with the name of the king, Tutankhamun.
Hieroglyphic inscriptions in this form are usually reserved
for the king, although occasionally the names of other
people of high rank were depicted in cartouches.
Of course today, anybody can get a cartouche.
It's a main toursist draw, and the companies send
representatives on the tour bus, and the first day you're there
and you decide whether you're going to order a cartouche,
and if you do a couple days later they come back with your
finished cartouche of your name.
This one's my mother's actually.
A cartouche is an oval ring that is a representation of a length
of rope--I don't know that you can tell that or not--
that is tied at one end.
When displaying the name of the king, it symbolized everything
that the sun encircled, and is thus an indication of the king's
rule in the cosmos.
You've seen this box before in the symposium.
As Dr. Lanham mentioned earlier, it was a shoe box,
so it's not very big but it looks very well ornamented.
It's from Tutankhamun's tomb, and depicting the king hunting
lions on the top, and at the bottom doing battle against the
Nubians--the people that lived south of Egypt.
I'm going to show you a series of slides, and each one is going
to be like what was inside of the one before.
This slide and its contents is an example of the extent to
which the tomb builders, scribes and artisans would go to provide
for the king's afterlife.
The photo shows the exterior of King Tutankhamun's
canopic shrine, guarded by four goddesses.
Made of wood and guilded in gold, the shrine served
to protect the mummified remains of the king's
essential internal organs.
Inside that was this--it's an alabaster vessel, holding four
alabaster canopic jars containing King Tutankhamun's
mummified lungs, liver, stomach and intestines.
And then inside of those jars--King Tutankhamun's
internal organs were not placed directly into the alabaster
jars, however, but within four small coffins of solid gold
inlaid with colored glass and carnelian.
These were miniature replicas of his middle coffin and his
sarcophagus, showing the king as the god Osiris, wearing an
artificial beard and holding the crook and flail.
Now this slide shows the inside of one
of King Tutankhamun's canopic caskets.
Inscribed in hieroglyphics, sorry--it was felt that the king
would need his internal organs in his afterlife so everything
possible was done to preserve them and have them clearly
identified, in these hieroglyphic inscriptions in
here, as belonging to Tutankhamun.
I hope that I've succeeded here in demonstrating that the
scribes in ancient Egypt can be seen as the de facto archivists
of their civilization.
By recording historic happenings, religious rituals,
royal events and activities of daily life in such a detailed
and permanent way--on temple walls, the walls of tombs
and on artifacts concealed in tombs--the ancient scribes
preserved the essential elements of their culture
and transmitted this wonderful heritage through the ages.
Now in case you're interested in going to Egypt,
here's your ticket.
This is actually the ticket that we used when we flew from Cairo
to Luxor and back.
Egypt Air.
And this is a bank note that I brought back with me.
You can see all of the motifs that are used in it still today,
and they really revere their past in Egypt and
you can tell that they do.
Your camel is waiting.
That's all I have.
[audience applause]
>> Dr. Wahby: Any questions?
Can you do this archivic presentation
more interesting I wonder.
Any questions or comments.
>> male speaker: Hey, Bob.
Were the scribes part of a priest caste
or were they kind of their own caste?
>> Mr. Hillman: Well, I think it depended
because if they were attached to the king's
inner circle, they would be, most of
them would have been part of that, but there were scribes in
all walks of life and their were merchants and administrators who
were in charge of different parts of the country.
You know, the daily affairs of different industries
and so forth, and they all had scribes, so I think the answer
is most of them were not, but then some were.
The ones that succeeded in preserving their work were,
because the work of the other scribes didn't survive.
Most of the papyrus deteriorated and some things got flooded
and destroyed that way, so I think the answer is two-fold.
>> male speaker: Thank you.
>> female speaker: Most of the scribe was
wrote up and down, is that right?
Or it could be wrote across?
>> Mr. Hillman: Well, I think--I'm
not an expert in this at all--but I think it was mostly
up and down, although I have seen it the other way.
>> Dr. Wahby: I think they did it both ways.
But question regarding the scribes that we have seen--
do they use pencil or reed or something?
>> Mr. Hillman: When they were writing
on papyrus, they used, it was sort of like
a little reed that had a slant at the end,
and one account said they would suck on it to make it sort
of flexible so that the pigment would adhere to it
and be flexible enough so they could draw with it.
>> Dr. Wahby: [unclear dialogue]
>> Mr. Hillman: In a sense, yeah.
It wasn't a brush like we know today,
with bristles and things like that.
>> Dr. Wahby: Obviously they used
very high quality, or good quality ink.
>> Mr. Hillman: They did, yeah, obviously.
It's amazing.
>> Dr. Wahby: [unclear dialogue].
Back to the archiving process--is there anything in
your research that says they did it simultaneously as events are
going on, or is it kind of aftermath?
>> Mr. Hillman: I don't really know that
for sure, but because of the time it took to
do it, I think most of it would be after
the event because it wasn't something they could just
scribble out--they were doing hieroglyphics.
>> Dr. Wahby: Any indication on the reeds--
quote, unquote--they used to cut in stone?
I mean the method or [unclear dialogue].
>> Mr. Hillman: You know I don't really
know for sure how they did that.
We've had some talk about it in
one of the other sessions I came to.
>> Dr. Wahby: It's amazing how
accurate the lines are.
>> Mr. Hillman: I know, and they've survived
all these centuries, so they must have used
some kind of a rope to make lines with
so that they could have straight lines.
I don't read up much on the process of it.
>> Dr. Wahby: Question--what is the
fascination with this and the [unclear dialogue].
>> Mr. Hillman: Well, I mean this cartouche is--
you can come up and take a closer look at it--
this is part of my mother's name.
She bought it when we were over in Egypt,
and I didn't buy one--I like gold jewelry and
I didn't want to spend 10 times as much, so I didn't get one.
And this is course--I mean I haven't had this more than
two weeks or the papyrus more than two weeks.
>> Dr. Wahby: Any other questions or comments?
I think we need to bring this to a close.
[no dialogue].