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Uploaded by holocausttestimonies on 27.06.2012

Transcript:
The 17th of February, 2008, È"‡ ·‡„¯, ˙˘Ò"Á. The is an interview with Mrs. Mimi Reinhard.
You were born as Carmen Mimi Koppel in Wiener Neustadt, Austria in 1915. Weíll talk during
the interview about your childhood in Austria, your marriage. You moved to Krakow and then
when the war broke out, the Krakow ghetto, Plaszow and with Schindlerís list, especially
when you worked as his secretary or stenographer. My name is Ronit Wilder and we begin with
your childhood. Can you tell me first a little bit about your family, your background?
Well, my mother was brought in Fiume and my father in Austria. Fiume wasÖ
You mean Italy, no? Yes. Now it is Italy, yes. And my father was
from Austria, Wodenland (sp?), and so was my grandfather. My whole family.
For generations? Yes. And I went to school in Wiener Neustadt.
I was usually the only Jew in my class. I went to gymnasium. I made matura. Then I went
to Wien to study. Matura is the matriculation.
Matura is baccalaureate. We call it matriculation. You finished high
school. But before that, I want to talk a little bit about your family. If your mother
grew up in Fiume, that means that you didn't know your mother's family?
Oh sure I knew. My mother's family ñ her father was from Hungary, her mother was from
Czechoslovakia. They married in Budapest and they moved to Fiume and later on my grandparents
moved to Trieste, also in Italy. So as a child you met them?
Of course. I spent my vacations always in Trieste. Then it was not an eventful childhood.
I was an only child. And your father's family was still in Burgenland,
or they moved to Wiener Neustadt? No, they moved to Wiener Neustadt, to the
big city. You knew your grandparents?
Both sides. And you had uncles and aunts and many relatives?
Yes. My grandmother had thirteen children. Your paternal grandmother had thirteen children?
All of themÖ From one wife.
And all of them were alive as adults? Yes.
And your father was number? One.
The oldest! What was your father's name? Emile.
Emile Koppel. And your mother had many brothers and sisters?
She had four siblings, yes. She had two sisters and two brothers. They were five.
All of them in Fiume? Yes.
And all your father's brothers and sisters were in Wiener Neustadt or around it?
Yes, Judenland (?), yes. Mostly in Wiener Neustadt.
So now I can understand why you were an only child! Were you a religious family?
Yes. In terms of today, you can say orthodox?
Orthodox. Both sides. My mother, for instance, covered her hair?
Yes. She wore a wig. And your father had a beard?
No. What was your parents' occupation?
My father was in the grain business with his father. They were very well-to-do, one of
the biggest grain merchants in Austria. That means that your father had to travel
a lot? No. He was even the judge at the grain (?) in
Vilna. You know? I don't remember really. I can't tell you. Where they judged between
people. Kind of a mediator betweenÖin the union or
something like that. Something like that. My father had also sixteen
racehorses. After Rothschild, in Wien he was the second biggestÖ
You had a stable? A stable. It was called "Korde Vindaborna"
(sp?) and "Vindaborna" is the Latin name of Wien.
So as a child, I suppose that you knew from a very young age to ride?
No. Those horses you cannot ride. Those were racehorses.
But if your father had so many horses and he was in that business, you didn't have a
pony or something, if you had a stable? No. The stable was in Wien and that was only
about racing. It was, I can't say hobby, but another business
that your father had. Well, it was a hobby for him.
And expensive one. A very expensive one.
And you remember yourself as a child going to the races to watch the horses?
No. When I was ten years old, my father went broke. My father left my mother.
After he was broke? When I was ten years old he left my mother
and the business was out and he had to sell the horses, and my teenage years were spent
with my mother. But the first ten years you remember as a
happy childhood? Yes. I had a fraulein, you know?
Governess. A governess, until I was ten. The same one.
The only language you spoke at home was German? Yes.
Your parents didn't speak Yiddish or any other language?
No. My mother spoke Hungarian. Were you a spoilt child?
I guess so. You say that you had a governess. If you wanted
to go to play with friends, could you go alone or everywhereÖ?
I was always with her. Always with her?
Yes. You went to a general school, not a Jewish
one? There wasn't a Jewish school.
So that means that on SaturdayÖ? Was no school.
You didn't go? Did I go? Maybe I did. But I didn't write.
At that time there were two possibilities. If it was primary school, sometimes you could
go and not write, and sometimes you could not go at all.
No, no. I went. I think it was at that time on Saturday the schools were open, I think,
but I didn't write. I went. Maybe at the gymnasium you went and didn't
write, but you think that even in primary school you went and didn't write?
Never. No. To this day I don't write on Shabbat. Not that I am so religious, but I don't write
on Shabbat. The neighbourhood, your childhood neighbourhood,
was mixed, Jews and gentiles? Yes.
And you had gentile friends? In school, but not outside of school.
And your parents had gentile friends? I don't remember. I don't think so.
Your mother was a housewife? Yes.
She stayed at home most of the time, or she had hobbies?
I donít think she had hobbies, but she went with my father to Vilna, you know. They all
were in their twenties and although they were religious, but they participated. They went
out a lot dancing. Your father had a car?
Yes. And a chauffeur. And at home I suppose there was a maid?
Yes. A cook and a maid and my fraulein. All of them not Jewish. They lived with you?
I think so. We had a big house. But no relatives lived with you? Or within
walking distance? In walking, my grandparents. Wiener Neustadt
isn't such a big city. So every Shabbat you could go to visit the
family? Yes.
Do you remember Shabbat at home, as a child? Yes.
How was it? Nothing out of the ordinary.
Did you go with your father to the synagogue because your father didn't have sons?
No. At that time women didn't go to shul. My grandfather in Wiener Neustadt ñ we had
a big synagogue and that wasn't religious enough for him. My grandfather had a very
big house. He had so many children he made his own shul in his house, his own minyan.
You were the first grandchild? Grandchild.
So you were doubly spoilt! Yes.
Which holiday did you like best at home? I can't remember. Maybe Pesach.
Although you had to do it twice? Two days, you mean? Yes. Of course.
Do you remember any connection to Zionism at home when you were as child?
No. Not even with one of your uncles or aunts
because you had such a big family? No. Although we were a religious family, but
we were not a Zionist family. We were very proud to be Austrians.
Austrian patriotism was at home? Yes.
Although at that time it wasÖ Later on. We found out what the Austrians
were. Your father wasnít a soldier in the First
World War. No.
Something else about your childhood till the age of ten?
After I made my matura I went to the university in Wien. I travelled by train.
But when you father left home, you, with your mother, stayed in Wiener Neustadt in the same
house? No.
And your father was also in Wiener Neustadt? No, he had his office in Wiener Neustadt,
in he lived in Wien. So you saw him only seldom?
Yes. Not seldom. I saw him. As a child, did you go many times to Wien?
As a child not, but as a student I went every day.
I understand that your name, first your parents called you Carmen and then Mimi ñ both of
them heroines of opera. That means that your parents loved opera.
Loved opera and music. So as a child you remember yourself going
to the opera or to concerts? Yes, right.
Even at that age of five, six, seven? No, because I lived in a small town and you
had to go to Wien. There was a theatre in Wiener Neustadt, but not opera or concerts.
In high school do you remember anything connected to anti-Semitism, or even in primary school?
You remember anti-Semitism in Wiener Neustadt? I donít remember anti-Semitism. I know only
that my classmates, I was very good friends with them, but outside, my mother didnít
push friendship with the goyim, you know. On the contrary. So in school we were in friends,
outside of school we werenít. But although you werenít friends with them,
they didnít try toÖsometimes we hear about stones that children threw at Jews or things
like that. Nothing? No. Never. I donít remember anything. I think
I would remember if I had been discriminated against.
Not by the teachers, not by the otherÖ? No. They treated us all the same.
So the only difference between you and them was that you didnít write on Saturdays.
Yes. And when they had religious, you knowÖ When the priest came to teach them, you went
out. I was out. And we had, once a week the rabbi
gave us lessons inÖnot in Hebrew. In history. Did you learn to read Hebrew in order to pray?
I had private lessons and I remember I wrote German in Hebrew letters to my grandfather
in Trieste. But I forgot it, how to write anymore.
But when you knew how to read and write it, it doesnít mean that you understood what
you were praying. Not at all. What I read in the siddur I didnít
understand unless I read the translation. It was very common that girls went to high
school and finished matriculation? What do you mean, very common?
At that time I know that girls, it wasnít so obvious they went to high school and they
finished high school. Maximum they went to trade school or to learn how to sew or something
like that. Iíll tell you what. My parents were very
modern people and they wanted me to study. There was never any question about it. I mean,
they were not what you see now, Chassidic or extremely orthodox.
They werenít ultra-orthodox. They were orthodox. That means that at home they were alsoÖ
Kosher. Yes, but there were books, not only the Bible
and things like that. Of course. My mother was such a reader, but
not of Hebrew. She was a very, very intelligent woman, very worldly woman. And my father too.
You were also a reader? Always. To this day.
Still in German? I read in English, I read in German, I read
in French. So after high school, as you said, it was
obvious that you continue studying and you went to the University of Wien?
Yes. To study what?
Philology. Itís not easy.
Yes, but you know, when you made in matura in an Austrian gymnasium, you had a certain
level already. Preparation. And you still lived at home with your mother
and went every day by train to Wien? To Wien, yes. And when I stayed overnight,
I stayedÖmy motherís sister lived in Wien. I stayed with her, with her family.
University at that time ñ today also, but especially at that time was quite expensive
and you said that your father was broke at that time.
Yes, but still, he could afford tuition. Gymnasium you also had to pay. It wasnít free.
We are talking about the '30s and at that time in Germany the Nazis were already in
power. You felt something about it? They were not in power yet. They came in '38.
In Germany. In Germany they were in '33. You felt anything?
Oh yes. Especially in the university because that's
a place thatÖ Exactly. They didn't know I was Jewish.
How come? How should they know? I didn't look Jewish,
I didn't talk any different. My upbringing was the same. My education was the same. They
didn't know I was Jewish. When you registered to the university you
didn't write your religion? When I matriculated, yes, but that was all.
That doesn't mean that the professors orÖmany of the professors were also Jews. Many were
Jews. And there were many Jewish students. In university you had non-Jewish friends or
again, naturally you are together, all the Jews?
No. First of all, I didn't live in Wien, so I was always coming by train.
Always hurrying to go back on the train. You know, my mother was so worried always.
I had to tell her what train I was taking. She was standing at the train station, so
I was always worried I might miss the train and my mother would wait, stand there and
wait for me, so I didn't have much of a social life in Wien.
Other students, I suppose, lived in Wien, even those who were out of town.
Yes. And many also came from other places around Wien ñ like I, they commuted.
So you weren't part of the campus. No. There was no campus.
No? No. I am sure there is still no campus in
Wien. It was a very famous university, special from everything.
By the way, when your mother was left alone and you said that before you had a maid and
a cook and all the help she neededÖ Now we lived in a smaller apartment and we
had a maid who came every day. It was a small household.
And you finished university? No, I got engaged to my husband and then got
married and then I moved to Krakow. That was a shidduch?
That was a shidduch. But why before finishing university?
Being in love, even though it was an arranged thing.
That was in '35? '36.
So you almost finished your studies. No, I didn't finish.
At that time it was more than three years? Four years.
Four years it was? And you got your Ph.D. after four years.
Yes, so it is a different system. Absolutely.
So you left university, you got married. Your husband wasn't from Wien.
No. He was from Poland. He was from a Chassidic family, but he wasn't religious at all.
So how come shidduch with you? It wasn't a shidduch by a shadchen. It was
somebody who told him about me in Poland. As a matter of fact, an aunt of mine met his
family and they were so impressed with my aunt they asked, "Do you have a sister?" She
said, "My sisters are all married, but I have a niece," and that's how he came to meet me
in Wien. So he came from Krakow to Wien, he met youÖ
And it clicked. It was nice and you got married and it was
obvious to you that the minute you got married you were moving with him to Krakow.
Yes. But we had an apartment. We took an apartment also in Wiener Neustadt, so thatÖI wanted
to go home to my mother very often. You did at the beginning?
I did. Every month? Or something like that?
Every two months. It's a day traveling? Something like that?
At that time we took the train, the express train. It took a night or a day.
So you went to Krakow. Although Krakow was once part of the Austro-Hungarian empire,
yet it was completely different culture. Everything was different for you.
And the language was like Hebrew for me here! Also I learned a little Polish and forgot
it apparently. So you had a culture shock at the beginning?
You can say that. And with your husband I suppose you could
speak German. He spoke German like I did. The same. Everybody
spoke. Many other Jews spoke German.
Everybody there, they spoke German. The Polish people in Warszawa, they spoke French. It's
funny, but in Krakow everybody spoke German. So even if you didn't understand Polish you
couldÖ I could get along there easily.
Did you get a job there? No. I got pregnant and I had a baby in June
of '39. That's how we got caught, because we had a baby.
But at that time, in Austria in '38, the Nazis came, they invaded.
And I was, when they came to Wien, I was in Wien. I was in Wiener Neustadt.
There was the Anschluss? I was at home when they came.
And you didn't try to convince your mother or your relatives to go away somehow?
You couldn't get any visa. My father got a visitor's visa to Uruguay. He had to take
a ticket for the ship, going and coming back, first class, in order to go for a visit, and
that's how he went in '39 to Uruguay and stayed there.
Your father got married again? Much later. When my mother wasn't alive anymore.
So the Germans came to Austria and you could still go back to Krakow. And at the beginning,
did you feel the danger? When you knew that the Germans were in Austria?
I think I was very na?ve. I didn't realize. I was so young then. I didn't realize in what
danger we were, how lucky I was that I got away from Austria. But, you know, my husbandÖit
was very difficult to get a passport in Poland. For each trip you had to get a new passport.
I don't know if you know that. It wasn't so easy anymore.
So he couldn't come with you? To Austria? He had always to have a new passport
or a visa. But we had the apartment because we wanted to have a home also in Austria,
so that he could have a passport issued by the consulate in Wien.
He wanted to become an Austrian citizen? No, he couldn't. But since he had a place
in Austria, he could get a passport by the consulate, by the Polish consulate, so he
could travel between Austria and Wien. From '38 the Germans came. You were there.
You saw them? You saw the parade? We tried to get back as quickly as possible
and they took, the Jews from Wiener Neustadt, they put them in the synagogue andÖmy grandmother,
my mother. The whole family. I was already in Poland.
How did you hear about it? We wrote each other. And then my mother came,
when I was due to give birth, my mother came to Krakow, but she didn't want to stay. She
went back to Wien under the Nazis. She went back. An aunt of mine was married to a goy.
He became a Jew, but he was acknowledged as an Aryan and she, my aunt, her sister-in-law,
took her in. So you were in Krakow and your mother was
in Wien and your father at that time was already in Uruguay. So you had a son. You said it
was June '39? Yes.
And three months, less than three months after that the war broke out. Do you remember that
day? I remember that we left in a hurry, eastward,
but we came back. Towards the Russians?
Yes. But we came back. Because the Germans were already there?
No, becauseÖI don't know. It was such a balagan. It didn't make sense to push on, so we still
had an apartment in Krakow, intact (?). What was your husband's occupation?
He had a factory of curtain material. Textiles.
yes. What was his name?
Leitman, Josef Leitman. And I understand that he wasÖeconomically
you were okay before the war. Yes. He was very well-to-do.
And now you were stuck in Krakow. The factory was taken from him immediately?
They had also factories outside of Krakow. I mean, that they rented. In Switerzerland,
I think. The family?
My husband. He had a partner?
A partner. A Jewish one?
Yes. So I suppose that when the Germans came they
took everything and still there was time. The Germans came in September '39 and the
ghetto was established in March '41, so that period in between ñ do you remember it?
I remember it. It was a very hard time, with a baby.
Could you still have any help with the baby? I couldn't have. I had a help until they came,
but then she went back. She was from the country andÖThen I didn't have any help.
You stayed at home the whole time? At the beginning it was already dangerous to walk
on the streets? I don't know if we alreadyÖ(?)
It was a little later on, if I am not mistaken. You remember yourself walking on the streets
with the baby when you saw the Germans? Yes. You know, I wasn't Jewish-looking. I
spoke their language, so I wasn't in such danger maybe from them, before I had to wear
the armband, and then who wanted to go out? And in addition to that, because you weren't
local, the Polish people didn't know you, so they couldn't snitch on you, "This is a
Jew, this is a Jew," because you didn't grow up there. Did you think of a plan or something
to do at that time? Well, you know I went on false papers eventually,
with my child. But that was after the ghetto?
No, that was not after the ghetto. After there was a ghetto already.
Yes. You remember something about that period,
from the beginning of the war till the ghetto? I don't remember much. I know only that when
I wasÖthere was a woman, a volksdeutsche, if you know what that is. And she took me
in, with my child. To her apartment?
To her apartment. You knew her before the war?
No, but she was a very good woman. Her boyfriend was a Nazi, from the Gestapo.
And she knew you were Jewish? Of course. And she wanted meÖshe went out
with him and there was a dancing party and she wanted me to come to the Gestapo with
her. She said, "Who will think, if you come there, that you are Jewish?" But of course
I didn't go. Your child also didn't look Jewish, as a child?
No. And he knew that he never was allowed to go make peepee in front of anybody.
That's from a very young age. Yes.
Where was your husband at that time? He was also in the ghetto. You know, when
I was on false papers, his mother was in Bochnia, in the ghetto. He got to Bochnia, to the ghetto,
and when they caught me, the whole story, you know. My child was hidden at the professor
of the University of Krakow. We were hidden there for a few days. And he was a little
boy and he said to meÖand he was in the library. There was a leather sofa and he was lying
down and he said, "I'm not getting up until you are coming back." And I didn't come back.
That always haunted me. And then they caught me and they drove me to the Gestapo and from
the GestapoÖ I don't understand exactly the circumstances,
so if you can help me understand it. You went to the ghetto in '41 or you didn't even go
inside? I did and I took out my child for some time.
At first, '41, you went with your husband and your child to the ghetto. Your apartment
wasn't inside the ghetto. You had to move. Of course.
And then when you were in the ghettoÖ We were in little houses. I don't know how
many people in one room. So you went inside the ghetto with your husband's
family or with people you didn't even know? With people I didn't know.
In the same apartment. And at that time your husband began to look for false papers.
He wanted to save my life and the child's life and he looked to get me out and he found
that woman. But the false papers, they were real or they
were completely false? Completely false.
So it was with your picture, but someone who doesn't exist.
Exactly. And you know, there were qualities in false
papers. They were of good quality? It wasn't. He, my husband, filled it out.
That was the quality. He didn't have false papers?
No, he didn't. My child had. Also Zavorsky. He still has it, with his picture.
Your name was Zavorsky? Yes.
So your husband had the false papers for you and for the child. What was your child's name?
Also Zavorsky. I think Alexander. And at home he was?
What we called him. Alexander. But we didn't call him. We called him Sasha. To this day
he is Sasha. So after a few months in the ghetto you went
outside, or was it longer than that? Yes, I went outside and at that time this
woman had her boyfriend, she had a small apartment, so she brought us to that university professor
for the few days. How did you know here?
I don't know. My husband found that out. So she brought us to that university professor.
When I didn't come back that professor got very scared, that he had a child there that
he was hiding him, and he got in touch with the woman. And the woman said that the grandmother,
my husband's mother, was in the ghetto in Bochnia, which is near Krakow, so they smuggled
the child to Bochnia, to my mother-in-law. And at that time your husband was also there
in Bochnia? And my husband went also somehow to Bochnia.
When he heard that I was caught he went to Bochnia and he sent my mother-in-law with
the child to Hungary. How?
There were such people who paid. That little boy, with that elderly woman, they went over
the mountains and came to Hungary as Polish goyim and Polish papers. And they survived
the war as Polish goyim in Hungary. Your mother-in-law obviously spoke Polish,
but your son, he spoke only German, I suppose. He spoke, but he learned Polish in no time.
How were you caught? You know, there were electric streetcars in
Krakow. The first car was for Germans, the second car was for the Polacks. I usually
went into the German car. Nobody would think, but my mother was in Budapest and I heard
from a man ñ he was going to Budapest, so I wanted to give him a letter to my mother
and we took the electric strassebaum, but I couldnít sayÖI went with him. So he looked
very Jewish. There was a man standing, you know, in front of us and looking at us, and
I spoke to him. He was with you in the car that was only for
Germans. No. He couldn't get into that car. I could
have gone, but I went with him. I gave him a letter. And he had permission to go to ñ
he was a Jew ñ to go to Hungary, and I wanted to let my mother know that I was alive. So
at the next stop, the guy told us to come with him. He was released because his papers
were in order. I had false papers. And they realized it immediately?
Yes. You were interrogated?
I was what? Interrogated?
Yes. And I didn't tell them that I had a child because that was my nightmare.
But you told them that you are Jewish? Yes. You know what? I was already glad that
that was the end, that the running around and coming back to the ghetto and all that
really was something that I couldn't take anymore, so I figured that was the best solution.
I would go Plaszow andÖ You were in the Aryan side for a long time?
About three months. And did you have enough money for that?
My husband had the money. He wasn't with you outside. You were only
with the child. He at that time was in Bochnia? Yes. And when they brought the child, he realized
he couldn't do anything for me, but he could do something for his mother and for his child,
so he paid the personÖbut he stayed in Bochnia. Why?
He stayed because he thought I was in Plaszow. Maybe by some miracle I would get out. How
could he save his life and leave me? And then after some time he realized it didn't make
sense and he wanted to get out of the ghetto in Bochnia. And as he got to the exit of the
ghetto they caught him and they killed him there.
On the spot? I don't know. They say that they loosed the
dogs at him and that the dogs killed him. He tried to escape from the ghetto.
The same. He wanted also to go to Hungary. I suppose that you heard about it only after
the war. Yes. I didn't know if my child was alive.
I just had an idea, maybe. So after the warÖ But you didn't even know that your child was
smuggled to Budapest. You know, somehow I had an idea. And he wasn't
in Budapest. He was in Szeged. Because you had a plan before, to try to go
to Hungary? No, but somehow I found out ñ I don't know
how ñ that from Bochnia you couldÖthere was a Jewish woman who arranged that for money,
and she paid those people. Through her somehow I found out that maybe my mother-in-law and
my son succeeded in going to Hungary. So at that time in Hungary were your son,
your mother and your mother-in-law. My mother too.
Yes, so your son, your mother and your mother-in-law. My mother was in the ghetto in Budapest. My
mother-in-law was on false papers as a Polish woman in Szeged.
So you were caught and when you say that you were interrogated, was it a violent interrogation?
No. Not at all?
Not at all. Only they sent me to be killed. Up to Plaszow.
But they didn't hit you. With a whole group. We were all supposed to
go up and our grave was dug in Plaszow. You admitted immediately that you are Jewish?
Well, I couldn'tÖI had no proof otherwise. You were in jail?
Yes, at the Gestapo, in jail. For a few days?
Yes. At that time you already knew about Plaszow?
That was the beginning of Plaszow. That was the beginning, when they were making the streets,
paving the streets with Jewish gravestones. So we are talking about '42. You weren't in
the ghetto during the big aktions there. In May '42 and in October.
No. I was in and out. As long as I could stay out. When she couldn't keep me I would go
back to my husband. The volksdeutsche?
I was constantly, you know, in and out. You said that she was very kind to you and
also invited you to the Gestapo party, but you didn't go. But you went with her, for
instance, for shopping? Everything you needed to do.
No, no. Because I had a little child. I stayed home. And I wasn't that long with her. I was
mostly in the ghetto. In the ghetto you had enough food?
Not enough, but more than in the concentration camp.
So after you were caught you were taken with a group of people who were in different circumstances,
but all of them were caught out of place, let's say.
Yes. And we were sent up to be killed. They told you that you were going to be killed?
I think so, yes, because on the way up I got hysterical and a soldier took his rifle and
hit me, so I knew we were going to our death. When you say you were going up, it's because
Plaszow was on the hill. yes. I remember a way up.
Yes, because it was on a hill. And when you came and you know Goeth, who
was theÖ Amon Goeth. He was the chief of the camp.
And he was on bad terms with the Gestapo chief, and because the Gestapo chief sent us to death,
he said no, he was going to put us to work. And our graves were dug.
He was cross with him, so if he said "A", "I'll do 'B'."
Yes. I remember when we came up, all the Jews were hugging and kissing. We didn't know what
happened to us. We said, "We were supposed to be killed and now we areÖ" It was a big
thing, that the whole group was released. The group was a few dozens of people?
Yes, I would say so. Yes. A mass grave was dug, but then he changed his mind. He had
time to kill us, not when the Gestapo said he should kill us. He would kill us at his
time. So you arrived to Plaszow in '42. What happened
there? Well, you know, they found out, first of all,
that I was German-speaking and that I could take shorthand, and there weren't so many
people. They needed for their offices people who could take shorthand and type.
How did you know that? Because you went to university. It's not that you worked in an
office before. I went to high school, as you call it. They
knew I would go to the university and we could take an extra course in shorthand, so that
when we went to the university we could take notes. That was the reason why I tookÖI never
learned to type. I learned only steno. Stenography.
Stenography. That really saved my life. Maybe they use it now!