Enrollment Management 2012-02-27

>> Ed: Just to let you know that this committee --
the Open Management Committee and other --
this committee meetings are going
to be videotaped from now on.
So that it can be posted on the website
and this information can be shared
with the greater public community.
So I hope you were warned and you put
on your makeup [laughter] got to [inaudible] but anyway,
let's go around and [background voices]
>> The slide?
You're on.
>> [Inaudible] on the website light.
>> Ed: On the website light -- those are the answer to that.
>> Streaming?
>> Streaming, no.
>> Ed: No, it's not.
>> [Multiples speak]
>> [Inaudible] anything else
about the site, very, very quickly.
>> Ed: Okay, so there is a site -- the roster sheet circulating.
You put in your name on there and then you sign.
And I do want to bring you up to date
on a couple of participants.
I did get in touch with Manny Correa [assumed spelling]
who was -- served on this committee last year.
He was on here as a faculty member representing CTE
[inaudible] basic skills.
For basic skills programs, but he is no longer able to continue
and so I have asked Beverly Tate [assumed spelling]
to take his place and she has agreed to do so.
So she will be joining us from now on.
Other than that, I think that's the only change at this point.
Okay, you have a copy of the minutes.
A paper copy I understand we thought
that an electronic version had been sent
to you, but apparently not.
So you do have a paper copy.
If you would look that over very quickly and let me know --
let us know if there are any changes or corrections that need
to be made to the minutes from our last meeting.
>> I think I was here at the last meeting.
>> That was two weeks ago.
I think it was [inaudible]
>> [Inaudible]
>> Okay.
[ Background voices ]
>> Ed: Okay, any other corrections?
Okay, so the second item
on today's agenda is we have an update
on broken [phonetic] management.
And my co-chair, Bob Miller, is going to present that.
>> Bob: Okay, thank you Ed.
This came from an executive committee meeting
and we were talking about all kinds of things, obviously.
And one of the things that I shared
with the executive committee is kind a precursor
to this discussion that I'm going to share with you briefly,
which is that next year, as we look at our workload reduction.
We've got to plan for it and to be clear in 11-12, we have FTES,
19,634, is our current FTES.
As we go into 12-13, based upon the budget system presented
to us thus far, we're going to have to reduce our 19,634
by 1,150 FTES, 1,150, which will bring us down to something
on the order of 18,484 FTES.
Now, currently, this year, we have 5,334 sections
that we offered through the 11-12 year.
In order to get us to where we need to be next year,
we would have to reduce like 548 sections --
546 sections, bringing us down to a total of 4,788 sections.
Now, through the president's graduation fund, you're going
to be hearing more about, it may very well be
that we can add roughly another 200 sections back in,
but at the moment, that's not guaranteed because that's going
to be based upon soft money that comes
in from donations and what have you.
So the college has got to build a schedule next year
on the basis of 4,788 sections, give or take or 84.
We'll still playing with the math
for this [inaudible] Approximately 4,784 sections,
down from this year of 5,334.
So if we did the math correctly,
that's about a 546 section reduction.
So that's obviously serious and of concern,
but you know, it is our reality.
And of course, our reality changes should the governor's
tax initiative pass in November, but for now,
we obviously can't count on that.
So at the board meeting last week --
do I need a clicker or something here?
>> I got it.
>> Ed: Okay, thank you, at the board meeting, thanks Crystal.
>> You're welcome.
>> Ed: Thanks.
At the board meeting last week I presented a report
and basically this is a six year overview of our credit sections
in FTES starting in 2006 7, and then taking us down to
where we ended for 11 and 12.
So it's broken down by summer, fall, winter, spring,
and then the total, and this is where that 5,334 number came to,
we had a plan of 5,230 but we went over that by 104 sections,
there's all kinds reasons for that but we won't,
don't need to go into that right now.
The difference is that we're 955 FTES
over where we should've been.
In normal college operation,
a healthy college operation is you want to be over your FTES,
you want to be over your FTES calculation by one
to two percent, generally speaking,
sometimes a little higher than that, by one or two percent.
>> Why?
>> Ed: Because you don't know how it's going to end,
you want to make sure that you actually collect every nickel
you can collect, so if you don't plan a little bit
over then you might end up a little bit below
and you can't collect all the revenue that's needed,
so that's due you.
>> So if we don't meet FTES,
it would be a reduction coming to us?
>> Ed: Yeah, each one of those FTES is worth 4,000 no 5,436,
is that what it is?
>> 4,000.
>> Ed: $4,556 or something like that, not 46, $4,700 per FTES
and that's our core general fund funding.
So, in this case, we had 955 FTES times $4,600,
that's the amount of money we didn't collect
because the State is only paying us
for this number here, the 19,634.
>> Bob: And once again, this number is a number
that we receive from the Chancellor's office.
>> Ed: That's correct.
>> Bob: We don't have a say in that.
>> Ed: No, we don't have a say in that, and you'll notice
that over the years, our funded FTES has kind of gone up
and gone down prior to 2006 7, going back to three four,
and then four five, and at one point the number was as high
as 23, 24,000 FTES that they paid us on.
Yes, Crystal.
>> I think that it's important to know, 10,
11 actually where we're showing the funded FTES,
they haven't actually paid us that yet.
>> Ed: Right.
>> So, they could still take a workload reduction out of
that one which would then change all of our numbers again.
>> Ed: Right.
Because the way this, so we have,
not only the shifting sands of what they might decide
to pay us for, but we also have the cash flow issues
of when they're actually paying us,
but in any event, this is it now.
Next year, as I mentioned, that new number is going to go
down 18,000, 18,484, so sometime this week, Crystal, Dr. Bell,
and myself are going to sit down and we're going to take a shot
at allocating the sections across for next year,
and there's other issues about that, calendar issues
and some sort of things which I won't get into right now.
Okay, so that's sort of the basis of where we are now.
Next slide please.
>> Bob: Any questions about this?
>> Ed: Ah yes, [inaudible]
>> I want to clarify something Bob, I was looking back
at some notes from October 11th meeting, and it was said
that some of these sections for this year were funded by SASI,
so is that taken into account on this chart?
>> Ed: Yeah it's...
>> You have some sections funded by another source?
>> Ed: In here and here, in the fall and the spring,
we had some sections that were funded not by SASI,
but primarily by international education revenue.
I don't think we funded any sections directly
out of Student Access and Success Initiative funds,
so maybe the minutes are incorrect
but we did fund maybe 40 sections?
>> I think in the spring we had about 45 in there
that were funded by international,
somewhere around there.
>> Ed: So yeah, if you notice we're 104 over plan,
the majority of those were extra fall
and extra spring sections paid for by the F1 Visa Fund
and the good thing about that is
that those F1 Visa sections provided some space
for some local students to get in as well,
because it didn't always fill up completely,
in fact we didn't want them to fill up completely
with international students, so if there's like a class
with a closing number of 30, maybe 12 to 15 were F1
and the balance were local, yes.
>> But that was really a minimal number because most
of the F1 Visa students are enrolling in ESL courses.
>> Ed: Right.
>> So those predominantly,
we fill with international students, it was like,
some of the other courses that we added
to schedules like biology.
>> Ed: English, Biology, so do those things, right,
Crystal's right, the majority of those were ESL.
>> But that was probably less than 20 sections.
>> Ed: Yeah, okay.
>> Bob: All right any questions
about this chart, this information?
>> Ed: Okay, next.
So as we go forward, you know,
we're calling it now a strategic enrollment management plan,
and as I just mentioned with the 1150 reduction,
we have to reduce our section offerance,
by the time I did this, 350 to 400 sections,
but this actually implies a larger number now,
the number of five, whatever said.
>> 546.
>> 546, so that implies a bigger number.
The number of sections offered will be commencered
with the FTES funding provided by the State, in other words,
whatever the revenue is
that supports the sections we're going to offer,
that's the number of sections that we're going
to plan for and build to.
We're not going to get into a section creek situation
that further damages our,
or I should say further jeopardizes our FTES situation.
So we can no longer afford
to add sections beyond our FTES work load allocation.
Next slide please.
So, we're going to stop the roll over scheduling on the set.
And we're going to, the divisions are going to be asked
to create schedules that are based
on the so-called completion agenda of degrees, transcripts,
certificates, and job placement.
And again, we're going to build schedules that move the students
out of here as fast as possible towards their goals.
Next slide.
>> I think [inaudible]
>> Ed: Back up.
>> So this completion agenda will be discussing
within the context of this proposed change
to the enrollment management policy you'll be talking
about in a few minutes?
>> Ed: The enrollment priorities policy?
>> Yes. But also it's important to keep in mind,
not only are we talking about section reductions,
but in the budget committee which met last Friday,
they're also talking about other means by which
to cut other costs or raise revenue
through other means besides section adjustments.
>> Ed: Right, for example, the 45 sections that we ended
up removing from the fall semester, in hard dollars,
saved the district a little,
about $250,000 in hard real dollars.
Out of the $2.85 million, it's a very, very small amount of that,
so the balance has to come from other sources.
But again, this is talking about 12, 13 and going forward
as to how we're going to approach the schedule.
How the Deans and the Vice President
of Instruction are going to approach building the schedule.
>> Well, Bob, if I understand correctly, the standards
for when our division can turn in the classes to be offered.
>> Ed: Right.
>> Will be based on priorities
of degrees transferred to the job placement?
>> Ed: Right, not necessarily as priority but just
in this notion of complete agenda.
These are the four things that we ask the Deans
and the division faculty to think about.
How can we move people faster to whatever their end goal is?
By offering sections that do that, and we're going
to show you something a little later on in this presentation
to give you a sense of some of the course pattern behavior.
>> Anna [phonetic] you have a question?
>> Ed: Chris had one I think.
>> Can you repeat, sorry, what rollover schedule means?
>> Ed: Well, apparently and I don't mean this
of any disrespect, this is the way every college does it,
is that the way you start building your schedules,
you roll over from one fall to the next,
one spring to the next, and you start building
that way based upon past history and practice and what have you,
which in the normal course of business, works and works well,
but now that our resources are being as limited as they are,
our supply of FTES', is at such great demand,
now we have to begin about different ways
to strategically manage that resource.
>> It doesn't assume that you have offered in the past,
is what you should continue to offer, right, perhaps it's
that basic assumption that's has [inaudible]
>> Ed: Which is why we put this notion of completion agenda
on the table, what's going
to move people faster to their goals, yes?
>> The Deans have pretty much complete,
finished their second drafts of the fall 2012 schedule
which was based on roll over scheduling with changes, okay,
and it should be clear, there are a lot of changes
in those roll over schedules, it's not just...
>> Ed: Right.
>> Assume they're just moving forward.
Is fall going to be affected by this?
>> Absolutely, you'll be hearing very shortly...
>> Well, [inaudible]
>> Bob: Where are you in here?
>> We've done our seventh draft, we worked on it over Christmas
and they came back to us, and so it's very far along.
>> We have documentation
that says it will be published April 23rd to the website,
to the public website.
>> Yeah, we're in a whole new world here, Crystal.
>> I just like to say that Amy is usually one of the first
to get her schedules in, so and some of the Deans do not follow
as quickly as she does.
>> What deadlines do you give to the Deans then?
>> We generally, for each workup, we have two workups
which is basically a copy of their old schedule,
and we give that document to the Deans twice with six weeks
for them to work on it each time, and then allowing
for between four and five weeks of add entry after that,
and Amy is one of the people who usually gets it in early,
there are several divisions...
>> On time, not early.
>> On time, there are several divisions who struggle to get it
in so that it can be put in so that it can be accurate
for the second workup.
>> Again, what deadline do you give?
>> December 22nd was for the first draft.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Right before Christmas.
>> Uh huh.
>> And most of us turned it in the first week in January
because we knew they weren't going to be here,
and then the March, this Friday, I think is the second, is due.
>> And when do you absolutely have to have this done?
>> Well, the idea is to have as accurate a schedule as possible
when it goes live, which is on...
>> The deadline.
>> April 23rd.
>> Yes, but with the caveat
that every time we post the schedule publically
within a day it's inaccurate, which is one
of the reasons why we've gotten rid
of the printed scheduled classes.
>> So you're saying that your office then manages
that schedule afterwards.
>> Yes.
>> You're moving and adding.
>> Okay, and changing things within, you know,
the day of a class, the time of a class,
the instructor of a class, okay.
>> In exasperating all of this is that we're
in extraordinary times right now, we're,
this is just uncharted territory and we just have to adjust.
>> Now, and since these are extraordinary times,
I understand why we're doing it.
Is this meant to be a permanent solutions to a temporary problem
because as bad as things are, it's not a permanent problem,
eventually the economy will rebound,
eventually it will get better, who knows when it will happen,
so my question is, by implementing this, is this going
to be permanent or this is a temporary solution
to a temporary problem.
>> Well, I don't know if I should be the one.
>> Well, I think that the policy proposal that we'll look
at should be permanent in the sense
that policy should be an ongoing guideline to the Deans
and others, that's two, what the priorities should be,
what courses are of greater value, you might say,
or greater importance for this agenda, for completion
of degrees, certificates, and so on.
One thing that we have not had here is something,
other than the educational master plan,
which is relatively recent, is we have not had some type
of clear guidance as to what are our priorities,
whether we're reducing courses or adding courses.
>> Well, within our contents I think we should say is,
since what we've been having is a roll over schedule,
I think before we say this is going to permanent,
why not take a look at the benefits of roll over,
take a look at benefits of this current plan and see
which one is actually better, then we can say,
we can use this one as a permanent,
I don't know what the benefits are in a roll over schedule.
>> Ed: Well Bob Miller's answer to your question is,
nothing's every permanent.
>> Right.
>> Ed: This is where we need to go now as far
as educational master plan,
per the student's success task force recommendations per the,
our limited FTES reality.
So, as we go forward here, we need to adjust to the times,
a year, two, three years from now,
there may be different times and we reassess at that point,
I don't think that anything is engraved in stone forever.
>> I agree.
So then what's, let's say we do we proceed with this,
we should make sure it states that this is something
that is not permanent then.
>> Bob: Well, unfortunate, and again, we'll be looking
at policy and procedures and they should be,
you shouldn't change those every month, you know, but yeah,
be flexible and make adjustments as things change.
>> I mean, perhaps there'll be some whole new category that...
>> Absolutely.
>> We're not conscious of at this moment.
>> Right.
>> And you're right, we can make adjustments later on.
Crystal?
>> Well I know this committee is very limited in scope
but I think we really need
to consider how this is going to impact faculty.
There are going to be faculty
on this campus whose classes might go away.
They may have been hired to teach those classes
in some cases, so we're making decisions about sections,
but we don't really understand the full impact this is going
to have on our faculty.
>> Okay. Sue [phonetic]
>> Well I just think that this is a good idea
because we do have courses in my own division
which are not required for anything
and aren't even a recommended elective for anything,
so I would certainly rather those courses go away, than,
you know, courses that do pertain to this and I hope
that we're able to work at that kind of accord.
>> Bob: I think you're referring to courses that are known
as standalone courses, courses that are not part
of an Associate Degree, they do not transfer,
they don't want part of a CTE program.
>> Right.
>> Bob: There are a few on the books
and they're still offered and.
>> Well when times were good we added courses
that were nice to have.
>> [Inaudible]
>> I don't know, I know there are some in our division
that aren't required for anything, they were just added,
I don't know how that got added,
they're not in my particular program but.
>> Glen?
>> Well I think there are courses that aren't required
but they're totally enriching for the students.
>> No, they are nice to have.
>> And so I don't want anything kind of off the books,
you can go into a stagnant place like so many
of our other courses sit there and then when things pick
up again we can offer them.
I'd hate for us to be become a college
that doesn't have a well-rounded, really cool,
interesting, different kinds of courses that, you know,
that would really enrich their experience here, so I don't want
to get rid of any courses.
>> Ed: We have 1900 plus courses on the books,
and at any given semester we might be offering six,
seven to 800 of them give or take,
from what I remember looking at.
>> If you look at that document we have
from the Chancellor's office though, there's only
like 14 unit core courses or something and we have
like 400 in the inventory.
>> Ed: Well, let me keep going
because we'll see some additional, more information
on that part so Crystal, next slide please.
The other thing is we want
to reference what we call student course taking behavior.
Crystal and her folks have generated some nice data
by both, division in terms of the top courses offered
and taken by students in a division,
as well as the actually top 25 which I'll show you, so,
we're going to try course, and build schedules
that are based upon student course taking behavior, to,
and offer the maximum sections in those courses
so we can get more students in there, one of our problems now,
is we're not offering enough sections of some
of these key courses and that's something, so we're going
to go back and look at that.
We prepare data tied to our social of arts,
social of science, our AAT, social of arts transfer,
social of arts science transfer, these are the SB1440 Degrees,
the ones that directly go from PCC guaranteed enrollment right
into Cal State L.A. and some other SCU's going forward.
So, we now have that data, we're also preparing SCU, I guess,
general educational data as well
because it's a little bit different, so we'll be top,
there will be courses, the top 25 in those areas.
So, the next slide will give you an example of that,
these are the top 25 courses by enrollment
with a three year aggregated data, okay, so,
our number one course is English 1A and it turns
out that our number 25 is Theater Arts 7A, and at the end
of this thing, you'll see where the other 25 go, but these are
from the point of view generic course taking behavior.
Now...
>> You're talking about seats in these courses?
>> Ed: Talking about seats in these courses.
>> Billed...
>> Beg your pardon?
>> Ed: Billed seats.
So it will be different by division, a little bit
because in terms of what happens within a division is different
as we go towards students, you know, who are going
for extended majors or certain majors what have you,
but in general, you said 14, these happen to be our 25,
that this is what the majority of our students take
over a 25 year period as they're moving their way
out of this college.
Chris, and then, Glen, and then Beverly.
>> I think that you also take this data with a grain
of salt because, this, I mean, with,
BC owns all of our sections are fully enrolled and so this is,
not, obviously English 1A has the most but at the same time,
we also offer them sections in that class,
so if we offered more sections in say, Sociology 1,
those probably fit our goal because students
at this point, are looking to...
>> Ed: Take anything, but I would just, I would counter
that by saying, introduction, and these are the core classes,
English Comp, PolySci 1, Speech 1, Intermediate Algebra,
Math 31, Psyche 1, English 100 Further Basic Skills, Math 125,
again Basic Skills, Theater Arts 7B because it's an easy course
and everybody likes to get their three units, Soc 1,
I can keep going there but it's absolutely the core courses
that everybody needs either for degree or for transfer.
>> I guess.
>> Ed: And we need more of these sections is what it boils
down to.
Chris? Oh I'm sorry Glen?
>> I have a really hard problem with this one
because our core courses aren't showing
that there's a super [inaudible] level because we offer a lot
of them, but I could, we could add another 15 Ten 1A's
or Anatomy 25's but we have no labs,
I mean we are completely constrained by our lab space,
so I think it's not really fair, I mean to me,
it's not fair that our...
>> Ed: Well, we're not suggesting
that this is something to get cut, just give me the data.
>> I just want to say that this is not my favorite slide, okay.
>> Thank you.
>> I don't, I agree with what you're saying
and I think that's why in the previous slide we talked
about looking at the patterns
and seeing what courses are taking
to fulfill the general education pattern
which gives us a much better idea
across the college, what's happening.
>> Ed: And we'll be adding to that.
>> Well, yeah, because, I'm glad you said that because
when I look at English 400, and the math, I mean,
the students are taking those classes but yet it's at the end
so I wasn't sure why it was, is that why because the spring,
you get more in the fall than the spring.
Okay.
>> This is for your aggregated safety.
>> [Multiples speak]
>> At any time.
>> At any time okay.
>> There are always, like most English courses section we have
a 1A,
>> [Multiples speak]
>> And then 400, and historically
with those roll over, with that roll
over data that's been the enrollment pattern,
we offer many many more at 400, they don't fill.
>> Ed: But I think the bottom line is, is that all of our 900,
or 1,900 courses and maybe the six or 700
that we offer you know, a semester, these are the top 25
over a three year period.
>> I'm...
>> Yeah I was just going to point out that all
of the transferable courses, those numbered in low numbers,
with the exception of CIS 10 and of course,
yeah the English [inaudible] all of those are transferable
and appear on general ed.
>> Ed: Right.
>> So the students are taking the correct classes,
they know what to do.
>> Ed: They would know what to do to get
out of here and move on.
>> Right.
>> Ed: Okay, next slide because I don't want to take up a lot
of time, go be the amount strong,
and fall spring schedules the bulk of the section reductions
to achieve that are both likely to occur in the summer
and winter sections because our foundation of what we do is
in the fall and the spring, as a college.
Yes?
>> I think that, that the hurt, because winters
and summers are smaller, inner sessions are offered in upwards
of two sections, to cut one section
in winter affects more students than to cut one section
in the spring, in as much as more students
who plan taking winter, have less options,
and so to say that, I agree that fall
and spring are our most important,
but I think that if we just continue to cut from winter
and summer, it's really affecting the students who plan
on using those, and affects, it affects your plan I suppose more
if you cut a class in winter, than if you plan
on cutting class in spring, because in spring,
there are so many more classes for you to maybe get instead.
>> Ed: If we go forward with a three semester kind of idea,
if we do that, fall, spring,
and the following summer would be built, would be used to sort
of support those students
who need what they need to keep going.
So in other words, we have a strong fall,
we have a strong spring, we allocate whatever we allocate
for summer, so that that summer can be used for the catch
up period or for the get forward period,
and winter might go away, you know, because again,
we're getting down to 4,788 sections,
so something's got to give somewhere.
As it was, our summers and winters were down to like 270,
280 sections, and even that was
like a ghost town around this place.
>> Okay, Steve?
>> And it's important to note
that having a winter period is a fairly new duration
of our scheduling process and it was done at least
to a degree to generate FTES.
>> When we were at a point...
>> Like when we needed to generate FTES.
So again, like other people have said, nothing is permanent,
and so at this time, when we need to constraining of FTES,
or managing FTES, from my perspectives it seems like a...
>> Ed: It went into effect back when we were up to that 23,
24,000 FTES and the State had plenty of FTES to go around
and it was actually an administrative decision
by Dr. Kossler [assumed spelling] and others
to shoe horn in another revenue generating opportunity
and that's what they did.
Okay. Okay, so Dr. Bell Ladine's [assumed spelling]
post-consultation with the educational services office
with this committee, planning first committee, and Brack,
and resource and allocation committee,
are going to develop a summer, fall schedule
that will absorb the 350 to 400 section reduction needed,
so somewhere as we develop this thing, we've got to carve,
what is really a 546 sections, but at least to 350 to 400
out of the coming summer and fall, because if we don't
and that tax initiative is not passed,
then we are stuck holding the bag.
If we do take out of summer and fall,
and the tax initiative passes, then we can add it back in,
in winter and spring, and we can rebuild from there,
but we won't be able to if we don't make the massive
adjustment now, we won't be able to absorb this 1150 FTES hit.
>> Bob: And I think I can say
that it would certainly be easier if we could come
up with a plan where we have the option
of adding courses rather than reducing.
>> Ed: Right, Next slide.
>> Bob?
>> Ed: I'm sorry, yes?
>> My dilemma's this, so we're talking about reducing section,
reducing sections because of funding.
Two weeks ago when President Rocha mentioned in as much
of the audience checked out, we're not going to be,
we're putting a freeze on hiring.
Last week we were told that we're going to form a committee
to hire a history professor, so I,
one week I'm being told one thing, the next another,
so why would we hire someone
when we're reducing so many sections?
>> Ed: Here's two responses.
First of all, hiring freeze to me is a scary thing,
for a couple of reasons.
One, whether we're serving 25,000 students
or 30,000 students there is basic positions we have to have
to run the institutions, so some of you are just going to have
to hire certain people in certain areas.
Regarding the faculty, and we're going to verify this again,
but we have, by law, something called the Full Time Faculty
Obligation Number, FFON, and at the present time our FFON,
effective July 1, 2012, is 378 faculty.
At the present time, full time faculty,
at the present time we have 368.
For every one of those 10 faculty members
that we don't hire, the State fines us $65,000, so what we had
to find out, and by the way
for the last several years this has been an issue
for other community colleges,
the Board of Governors thus far has yet to waive
that fine and that requirement.
It's still out there, in other words,
no matter what the financial crisis is,
the statewide academic senate has taken the position,
do not mess around with the 75, 25, do not mess around,
do not reduce our full time faculty any less
than it is right now.
So we're going to try to check this week to find
out what the chances are of the, the chances are
of actually invoking that $65,000.
If they're going to invoke it then the choice is, pay $650,000
in penalties, or hire full time faculty.
>> And I'd like to add, I think the local academic senate,
did make a recommendation for hiring new full time faculty,
we presented the list to the President and to the Board
of Trustees, that including a list of faculty members
that were recommended by the Deans, requested by the Deans
and then voted up on by a committee of faculty members.
[Inaudible] But we do need to find out what the reality is
with regards to our full time obligations number.
As far as classified positions or non-faculty positions,
there is more flexibility there I suppose.
>> Our FFON under at 368 then...
>> Ed: No, actually our FFON, we hired 22 faculty,
I think it was, and that brought us to the current,
that brought us to the right FFON, but what happened was is
that we had this large retirement, right,
so between the retirements what have you, 22 helped with that,
then we had X number go away, not just anytime we had
to decreasing FTES, I mean Crystal went
through incredible [inaudible] incredible mental gymnastics
to get to what that calculus was,
it was a very complex formula, but the bottom line is
as a result of all our retirements,
as a result of all the things we've done,
we are at the moment, 10 shy of what we would be,
but again it's based upon, but lining numbers,
right, two years back.
>> I think we have another question.
>> My question is, if we have to pull 350 sections.
>> Ed: Or more.
>> And most of them, as we know I hate to say it,
come from the adjuncts, would meet our equivalence,
by then would we be 75,
25 because we lost all those classes.
>> Ed: Well, again, and Crystal why don't you respond
to this, go ahead.
>> Crystal's had her [inaudible] she thinks about the FFON.
>> Exactly, yeah.
>> This last year was actually the first time
in years we've met the actual FFON count because we were able
to count in all of the retirees into the formula
and also full time temps are counted in, so we didn't,
I didn't have to go through the mental gymnastics to where I had
to take all the adjuncts and figure
out their full time equivalency and then it
to our full time faculty members which is how we've done it
in the past, it's very, very difficult and anybody's who's
on reassigned time has to come out of the equation,
and we have to take their adjuncts out of the equation
and it is really difficult.
I actually asked, and I think it's better for us,
to meet the number by a count, just because I don't have
to work so hard, just kidding, but because it makes more sense
to hire full time faculty, I think it's better
for the students to have them here,
I think it provides more consistency
across the educational patterns for students,
so I actually pushed to have us hire more full time faculty
so that we continue to meet the obligation by a count
and not the percentages.
>> Ed: Okay, next?
I'm sorry.
>> Progression, is winter locked in for 12 to 13
or is that still optional?
>> Ed: Well, the calendar committee is still talking
about it and based upon the new information that's right upon
us, there may be a recommendation coming forward
for the calendar committee to go with the three term approach,
the fall, spring, and winter, even for 12, 13,
they've got to make that decision very quickly.
>> Right.
>> Ed: Very quickly.
>> That's really not the calendar committee's purview
at the time.
>> Bob: Right.
>> Because that has not been negotiated.
>> Bob: Right.
There are negotiations that have to happen
around the large calendar issue, right, those are...
>> Ed: So the chances of it happening, who knows but for 13,
14, probably more, but again, as Crystal pointed
out there's a contract that's, you know,
we're beginning to negotiate now so.
>> Bob, can you clarify the history,
the full time position will go forward.
>> Ed: Well, to answer to your question, I would say yes,
unless we find out that they're going to suspend that penalty.
>> Right.
>> Ed: And then maybe, and I emphasize the word maybe,
maybe it will be different a thought about it.
But for now, economically it just does not,
and for the same thing that Crystal explained.
>> Not just history, but the 10?
>> [Multiples speak]
>> They had a job fair there on Saturday.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> I have real concerns, I hear this from adjuncts all the time
that they went through the interview process
and that they were hired
and then suddenly they pulled the jobs.
I don't want to do that to our people?
>> I...
>> Ed: Well, again, we're going to try to get answer this week,
we may get the answer, don't know, if the Board
of Governors decides to do what they're going to do
so we're going to have to make a decision either go or no go.
Either pay the 650, what they could do is,
they could say okay don't do it and then three years
from now send us a bill for $650,000
and they would likely do that, I'm sorry, Katie?
>> No, I was just going to say this happened once before,
under President Perfunio [phonetic] you know,
that people have been interviewed
and the jobs have changed from tender track to one year tent,
and an agreement was made with the President,
and if the jobs opened up for the following year
and the faculty had gotten good evaluation, they would move it
to that job automatically.
>> Okay, thank you.
>> Ed: Okay, I think next slide and I'm down here,
and this I never would have thought of,
this is the top 50 courses by enrollment,
I didn't even show this to the board the other night,
but basically it just shows you that it pretty much evens off
for the values, I think the last one was -
>> Theater Arts 7A.
>> Ed: Theater Arts 7A, so from Humanities 4 forward,
that's the other 25, anyway, it was just to give you a sense
of what the topics are.
>> Interesting enough though,
this still gives sort of a skewed glimpse.
>> Yeah.
>> Bob: I, it means by not showing some courses
that are very much in demand and very beneficial to students,
like Chemistry, quite a few Biology classes,
and so on that happen to be located in the rest of it.
>> Ed: So and again, it has a lot to do with facilities,
with how labs you've got and, so, that's.
>> Bob: Okay, all right, on the agenda we are continuing now
to look at the enrollment priorities policy number 4020,
you received this copy electronically
and you had a paper version here in front of you.
The paper version and the electronic version have proposed
changes in red, the type, the wording that you see
in black ink is current policy.
And I did get feedback, this is the third draft I believe,
right, the third draft I did get feedback from some of you
from our last meeting, mostly about clarifying section two,
which is on page two,
and clarifying the priority for registration.
I did find, frankly section one does, is confusing a little bit,
I think maybe at our next meeting, I might,
we might invite Dena Chase [assumed spelling] who's
in charge of admissions and registration
to clarify how section one actually works in terms
of implementation, but section two,
I find it might be best just to list, in simple order from A
to J, priority registration for every student who gets
to register first, and I think
that I've captured what most people said they would
prefer it.
Any questions about?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> The only comment I have is behind the cover sheet.
>> Bob: Okay, page one.
>> Page one, it's [inaudible] pre-requisite.
>> Bob: Right.
>> [Inaudible] or do to other practical considerations.
>> Bob: Right.
>> I don't like to deal in the unknown.
I would rather be specific and for me to say or do
to other's practical considerations is
to general what I would like to see more specific
in what these practical considerations are
because what you consider
and what I consider might be too different, so depending
on who's administering to that particular student might have a
different answer and that student might get in under you
but not under me, so I would like to see...
>> Bob: Well, the practical considerations are actually
on section five, page two, and continue onto the next page.
>> Okay.
>> Bob: So, it says healthy, excuse me,
health and safety considerations,
facility limitations, faculty workload,
ability to understand qualified instructions.
>> Excuse me where is that?
>> At the very bottom, section five, in red.
>> It's at the top of the next page.
>> Oh.
>> [Multiples speak]
>> Thank you.
[ Background noise ]
>> So page one is meant to be a bit nebulance [assumed spelling]
meant to give more of a general guidance than you get
into the specifics and procedures.
>> Okay, I have, I feel, 2F, as we all know,
the Board of Trustees, the President,
many of us out in this community have stated that the new,
in district residents who graduate
from high school during the current calendar year,
were going to get much high priority,
and the discussion has been that they would come in right
after those that are legally mandated
as getting the number one priority.
>> Right.
>> So, where they are right now will probably,
there'll be discussions, put it that way.
>> All right, I think we can talk about,
the ones that go before them are simply the continuing students.
>> Right.
>> And then before them, new DSDS, US, Foster Youth
and Active Duty Military and Veteran students.
>> And that's legally required.
>> Yes, that's legally required yes, we can check on that to see
if indeed that's the case,
and if we can adjust this then we're certainly open
to that discussion.
>> Ed: Well it would me my suggestion to move at, to be,
Crystal remind me again,
the number of students that might result in?
>> Which one?
>> Ed: What is now F?
In a typical year, how many might that be?
>> In other words, new in district.
>> [Multiples speak]
>> That's just in our path ways, I would say our
in district students are probably, but slightly higher
than that, maybe fifteen hundred.
>> Ed: Yeah, I think that's the number as well,
that we're talking about, somewhere in that neighborhood.
>> I also like to think, and I'm not sure,
Ed you probably know better than me,
I think you have to move E, F too.
>> Bob: Yes, we have to be A, E, F, and then the rest.
>> I think all the E, F's I think they all have to be...
>> All right, I think that the local board has some discussion
in deciding, you're right that EOPNS, EPS and so on,
have to be at the top of the list,
but within the respective categories, of continuing
and then new students.
>> Ed: But we can check on it.
>> Yeah, we should really look into that.
>> Ed: We need to look at that.
>> Bob: Sure.
>> Is our current MIS just incapable of identifying these
in the order that we're going to recommend?
>> Bob: Yeah.
>> [Laughing]
>> Ed: We won't ask.
>> Is that a yes?
[Laughing]
>> Ed: That's why, another reason why we should have Dena
Chase here to answer those questions.
>> I mean I had that question about, on down the list,
but just looking at our first group of priorities.
>> Ed: Right.
>> Can we do it?
>> Ed: The answer is a definite maybe, but the new system,
for sure, will be able to and the new system,
we will select the vendor by June of this year and then 12
to 24 months later we'll be operating depending
on the different, and the student information system will
be the first thing that comes out.
>> I understand systems development projects,
and we're not looking at this for at least four semesters,
if we get it five semesters from now, we'll be very lucky.
The FAA started theirs seven years ago
and they still don't have it.
>> [Laughing]
>> That's encouraging.
>> I think the only one that doesn't have a tag
in the system right now is foster youth.
>> Bob: Does not have a tag in our current registration system?
>> We can't, yeah, right,
I think they are the only one's right now
that we do not have an official tag,
or we call it a data element but I'm not sure they have one.
>> What is the foster youth element, in terms of age?
>> Ed: Age?
>> Yeah?
>> Once the foster youth is 18, they're no longer foster youth
and then they come to us and so we consider them foster youth
because they came through the foster system,
but when they come to us they do get priority
if they were a foster youth.
>> It's irrelevant, how they say it's a relatively small age.
>> You're right, yeah.
>> Are we saying that's s A, B, C, D, all?
>> That is the order of priority they are going reduce.
>> Correct.
>> If that's the case,
I understand why we have continuance [inaudible] with C,
we charge them more money we bring in more money,
but I'd rather give the priority to people that are
from this area, this state, this country, then going afar.
>> Ed: Well...
>> I'm looking from two different perspectives,
I understand that other one
>> Ed: Well the problem with that though, from my mind,
you're talking about moving continually?
>> International students.
>> Ed: International students, the thing is,
they're on student visas, and say they're planning
on being here for four years, you know, say or five years
to get their B.A., and we give them, we get them in the door,
and then lower their priority to make them subject
to not being able to fill a class while they're
on their student visa, that to me, is a conflict of interest.
>> I agree, so maybe what this should say is this will affect
those students that are currently in the pipeline,
but once that pipeline has been flushed,
then we can put the rest at the bottom.
>> Well, I still see a conflict of interest.
>> Bob: The reason they're relatively high on the list is
because F1 Visa Students have to register in 12 units or more,
if they go below 12 units, they are, they and I think we,
are breaking federal law, so we have to ensure
that they have 12 units, if not it gets
to be all sorts of problems.
>> Okay.
>> Ed: Yes.
>> I understand the reasons behind the
in district students a priority,
but I see this jade all other new students which includes
out of district high school graduates and they got A
through I ahead of them and that means they could come in,
at the moment right now, look for classes, not be able to get
into any of them, and so for them, four years,
every year there's going to be a new A through I group
of students that's right in front of them,
they could effectively never be able to get classes
out of community college.
>> Ed: Well, unless, the community college they live in,
the district they live in, changes their priority,
and by the way, many community college districts are changing
their priority in this manner.
>> Bob: Okay.
Over there?
>> I think it might be interesting to know,
and a lot of people are aware of this, but from the first day
of classes of a school year until census,
which is like two weeks later, we add 2,000 students
at [inaudible] So we like to say we're full on the first day,
and we are, and yet 2,000 students additional are finding
classes and enrolling in them between the first day of classes
and census, so even though I understand what you're saying,
I do believe there are spaces out there, and I think one
of the things we're really seeing right now,
is students tend to over enroll in classes and then drop
and so it's opening up seats,
it's amazing these first two weeks, the amount of churn.
>> Yes, I see that a lot.
>> That's happening in all this, so while I agree with you,
I don't think that that's true to say that they don't ever get
into class because there is just an incredible amount of churn.
>> But at the same time I think that the way that we are going
with a lot of our policies with the add drop code issues
that we've had this semester, it's been more difficult.
I mean I completely, I understand people seem to drop
and add classes, Professor Cairo [assumed spelling] I dropped a
class this semester that I enrolled in and I gave the seat
to someone who could use it, but I think that we're,
to rely on students to be able to kind, you know,
I think it still hurts those students who are trying
to not give them an official formal recognition
of we're trying to get you students in here,
especially new high school students
that are just graduating,
including out of district students.
>> Bob: Well the answer to that is we are not going to be able
to accommodate as many as we have in the past.
And so, frankly, have to make some tough decisions
about then who gets priority.
[Inaudible]
>> Well, it sounds like, what Chris is suggesting though is
that a student has tried to enroll here
and maybe hasn't been successful or maybe has only been able
to get a class it really didn't need.
>> Bob: Okay.
>> Then he would have priority
over the next semester's group of new students.
>> Bob: Yes he would in that case
because he would become a continuing student.
>> So it's just that first time, it's just that one semester
that someone's a new student.
>> Bob: Right.
Sorry, go ahead.
>> So would you consider a continuing student if you were,
prior to PCC protocol, couldn't get into any classes,
in the spring you're considered continuing students?
>> [Multiples speak]
>> Bob: That student would be new.
>> That student would be new?
>> Bob: One section, to one unit,
he would be considered, yeah.
>> Ed: And so, what I would suggest is rethink one a little
bit, in other words, what's going to help this situation,
we've got many students out there with 150, 200 plus units,
number one is design and try to put a cap on those students
that says if you hit 100 unit mark, you are going to go
to the end of the line, and that theoretically should open
up a lot more spaces.
>> Bob: And that situation is dealt with in section three
which defines the least priority including the students
who have accrued more than 100 units, not including ESL
or basic skills, that's a recommendation coming to us
for the Student's Success Task Force, and, yes, Chris?
>> To bring this up, in PCC's resolution, basically all
of three are the specific points
in the student's success task force resolution
that the AS, your PCC opposes.
Basically, yes, projects not B not, 3B, but 3A, 3C, and 3D,
all we have either we have a full opposition to
or partial opposition to those processes.
I [inaudible] for those who do not have [inaudible]
>> [Inaudible]
>> Yes, it's two pages so make sure take a look
at both the first and second, front and back, and also the end
of the fourth page is our resolution that we presented
to the Board of Trustees in regards to spring classes.
>> You mean limit the students would agree to?
>> It's less the fact that there is a unit limit and it's more,
that one was conditional, was that there's a unit limit
but there's no process for appeals,
and to have just a simple, actual, to say yes or no,
black or white, is far to arduous into who may have
to either change their goals halfway through,
or those students who had to go into a bunch of electives
in order to increase their priority
so they could eventually get into a class they wanted to get.
>> So that there was an appeals process to the hundred unit?
>> That would be something that would be much...
>> Is that something we can do?
>> Ed: Well, certainly, and I think if the students were
to bring a suggestion forward to us,
I think it would be something
that we'd be happy to take a look at.
>> Bob: Would you be willing to work on a,
some language on [inaudible]
>> Absolutely.
>> Bob: Okay, that would be great.
>> In my own head, I fight this concept,
but I've heard other colleges considering it,
which is the notion that if the students already have a
Bachelor's Degree or at least a Graduate's Degree,
that they get lower priority as well than those students
who are just trying to start out.
But the problem I have personally, is that people start
over again, they want to retrain, they want to get
on with their lives, I don't think we really want
to go there if we can avoid but.
>> That's what I think we need to...
>> Exactly it could really start the heart
of the admissions of the institution.
Dave?
>> Ed: There's also the harsh reality though
and I really don't want to sound like the Grinch here,
the harsh reality that we really can't be all things
to all people, we've gotten
to that point where, you know, we can't.
>> Bob: The fact that Chris, you're going
to alternative language for section B.
>> Yes, as well as part one as well.
>> A, B, C, D.
>> Well also part of section 1,
the basic formula having some sort of process
where we can look at students who maybe need one more credit
to transfer, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, okay.
>> Bob: If you send that to me
and I'll incorporate it in the next draft.
>> Happy to do it.
>> Bob: Okay, all right and then continuing onto the third page.
>> May I ask a question please?
What's the timeline completing this do you think?
>> Bob: I understand that we want to do this
as quickly as [inaudible]
>> Ed: I really think it is important
because it really is the foundation of the touch stone
for a lot of the decisions we have to make going forward,
so the sooner we get this through to counsel,
the better off we're going to be.
>> Bob: I agree, and so then pending the legal issues
that Crystal is going to investigate along with me,
is basically, the list in section two acceptable?
>> Well, no the order, and then I want add [inaudible]
>> Are we allowed to, I would like to present this
to my division and get through it
and are we allowed to do this or not?
>> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> Oh sure, any type of, anything.
>> Bob: And in fact, for those who are faculty members,
we want for you to speak on behalf of the entire faculty.
>> 19?
>> And then they would drop
and in the old days they could give them away to their friend
but now it's a little more difficult to do.
>> Bob: Could you send me something to remind me of that?
So page three of the procedures, page three, most of it is in red
because it's entirely new and this is, once again,
where we are incorporating the priorities that Bob mentioned
in terms of class scheduling so it simply says again,
when adjustments must be made,
the number of course sections offered in any given semester
or intersession, the following priorities must be maintained.
And so greatest priority, in other words,
so that means the Deans and Administrators are instructed
to give greatest priority to these courses, those required
for the new SB1440 agrees, courses included
in [inaudible] courses required for certificates
of achievements, CTE courses, and courses identified
as often instruction basic skills.
Yes?
>> I'd like to suggest the language in this, that A, B, C,
D, is not actual priority, but that equal priority
in some equal fashion is given to those.
>> Bob: Okay.
>> We're not saying you have to have all A's before we can go
to the B's, and the C's, and the D's.
>> Bob: No, it's not that...
>> [Multiples speak]
>> Bob: It's not that descriptive but it is saying
that these should be more important
>> Right.
>> Bob: Than certainly those
that should be given these priority right below that.
>> Yes, but I'm saying A through D,
if that were following we had something like is...
>> [Multiples speak]
>> Bob: Could you send me some wording
that you might be comfortable with?
>> Yes.
>> [Multiples speak]
>> Ed: Especially because we had the precedent
in the earlier portion of the document
where there is a ranking.
>> Exactly.
>> Ed: The SB1440 is also known as transfer curriculum majors,
TCM, so you'll see the same kind of language in.
>> Bob: And then finally, at the very end we have those
that should receive the least priority, including,
as you mentioned earlier, the standalone courses,
and I think that we would, that we're all in agreement here,
that this shouldn't be receiving these priorities for,
the greatest priority for cuts are least priority -
>> They don't necessarily have to be taken
out of curriculum inventory,
but they just aren't offered for another reason.
>> Bob: That's right.
Okay. Crystal, can you please send me your [inaudible]
>> I will.
>> Bob: Okay, all right and then I will bring a revised copy
for our next meeting.
>> Ed: And what I'm passing around is just something
that came out in Cal Tech Long Beach,
and it's a public notice regarding changes
in their admissions guidelines
and basically they're considering admissions
guidelines that are tied more specifically
to the transferred curriculum majors, that it's tied,
what they call Long Beach College Promise, which is their,
you know, they're basically guaranteeing enrollment
for those go through that Long Beach City Schools,
along with City College, and then to Cal State of Long Beach.
And you can see here, admission and have at least a wide degree
of completion exist with local access, so and they're talking
about impacted students, so the bottom line is that the system
above us is doing the same thing that we're doing,
which is they're tightening down their admissions guidelines,
trying to get students, admitting students
who are prepared to get out within a reasonable time frame,
and they're telling the students coming up to them,
some of the community college students, you have to have this,
this and this before we even consider you to come
to Cal State Long Beach, and I would suspect
that the other SCU's are doing similar things right now.
>> Bob: On it, I do receive any word that the [inaudible]
>> No.
>> Ed: So this is a public hearing that they're having
and they're actually saying effective 13, 14,
the academic year 13, 14.
I don't remember where I got this from
but I got it from someplace.
[ Background noise ]
>> Bob: Tough decisions to be made, again, for those of you
who suggested change language
to the draft three please send me an email,
I'll incorporate those changes and bring drafts
for further revision to it to our next meeting
which is on March the 12th.
>> At 12:30?
>> Bob: 12:30.
>> Ed: Yeah.
>> And will we meet here?
>> Ed: Actually going forward we're going to try to have all
of the shared governance meetings either
in Cremley [assumed spelling]
or in Acadia [assumed spelling] I want to give as much room
as possible for as people who want to participate
to participate, you will see up on our website,
in the very near future, maybe as early as tomorrow,
links to all of these shared governance activities
under the educational services banner, it will be linked
to enrollment management and all the shared governance meetings
is where all of these videos will be posted.
So, every Brack meeting, every enrollment management meeting,
every planning parties meeting, every class by senate meeting,
every academic senate meeting, and probably more, what else?
>> Bob: But not today.
>> Ed: But not today, will be video tapes and will be posted
and they will be meeting in larger spaces, we're going to,
we're pushing hard for transparency,
the highest quarter right now.
>> At the beginning of the meeting you mentioned
that there's a need to reduce 546 sections for next year,
so is it the responsibility of this committee to discuss that
and make a recommendation to Brack?
I'd like that to be clear.
>> Ed: It is a, it's a responsibility of this committee
to provide, hopefully guidelines in agreement with the strategies
that the Deans and the faculties in that division will put
into effect in order to build their schedules.
But I think it's the responsibility of the divisions,
in association with Dr. Bell as our Vice President
of Instruction, to actually build the class schedule.
Amy, would you agree with that?
>> Yes. I think.
>> Bob: What part of it did...
>> No, I just, what was up there seemed to be the direction
to the Deans to build the schedule.
>> Ed: Right.
>> So are you saying something different?
>> Well, I'm wondering how those reductions will be made,
are we as a committee going to say, okay,
we're going to cut 200 out of fall 12, 346 out of spring 13,
is that going to be our recommendation?
>> Bob: No.
>> Ed: I don't believe so,
I believe that it will be a joint decision of the Deans
and Vice President Bell and myself
and those invoke upper enrollment management, it is,
I think if this committee has strong concerns
or strong comments, one way or the other that they want
to share with the Deans in order to build their schedule,
but I think that it's a decision of faculty and the management
of those areas to, based upon the broad guidelines we provide
to build their schedules accordingly.
>> And as it is right now,
we're retaining summer 12 and winter 13?
>> Ed: As it is right now, but I would say,
summer 12 will be dramatically reduced as will fall,
in order to deal with the 1150 that we have to plan for.
We we've got to somehow get those sections out of the,
now we can build some back, as I said earlier,
if the [inaudible] passes but for now we've got to,
we have to [inaudible]
>> Some of the [inaudible] fiscal for next summer.
>> Ed: That's correct.
I would also you're going to hear more
about the President's graduation fund concept and an opportunity
for people to contribute to the graduation fund
which will allow us to fund other sections, but again,
the funding additional sections would be tied
to the completion agenda concept.
The fund may be more of those top 25, may be more sections
in international science areas
that we know there's a desperate need for, we can find space for,
that's where we'll try to find some additional money
to fund those sections,
but right now we are building the scheduled tied
at 4,788 sections for 12, 13.
>> Bob: Any other comments or questions?
[Inaudible] to go to this.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you folks.
[ Multiples speak - background noise]