Abortion Debate: Attorneys Present Roe v. Wade Supreme Court Pro-Life / Pro-Choice Arguments (1971)


Uploaded by thefilmarchives on 01.01.2013

Transcript:
00:00:35 WE'LL HEAR ARGUMENT NUMBER 18, ROE AGAINST
WADE. MRS. READINGTON, YOU MAY PROCEED WHEREVER YOU ARE
00:01:05 Unidentified Speaker
READY. >> MR. CHIEF JUSTICE AND MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT, THE INSTANT CASE IS A DIRECT APPEAL
FROM A DECISION OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR...
00:01:38 Unidentified Speaker
WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DETERMINE TO CONTINUE OR TERMINATE A PREGNANCY. ALTHOUGH THE COURT
GRANTED DECLARATORY RELIEF, THEY DENIED THE REQUEST FOR INJUNCTIVE...
00:03:19 Unidentified Speaker
WORKING WITH THE STATUTE WHICH PROVIDED THAT AN ABORTION COULD BE PERFORMED FOR REASONS
OF HEALTH OR LIFE. OUR TEXAS STATUTE PROVIDES AN ABORTION
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ONLY WHERE IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SAVING THE LIFE OF THE WOMAN.
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SINCE THAT ADDITION WAS RENDERED, 00:03:37
Unidentified Speaker THE TEXAS COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS, WHICH
IS OUR HIGHEST COURT OF JURISDICTION, HAS HELD THAT THE TEXAS LAW IS NOT VAGUE BUT SAYING
IT IS MORE DEFINITE... 00:07:44
Unidentified Speaker ARE A GOOD MANY THRESHOLD QUESTIONS, ARE THERE
NOT, OF -- >> YES, YOUR HONOR, THERE ARE. >> JURISDICTION. >> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT,
OF COURSE, TO... 00:07:53
Unidentified Speaker COURT THAT IN
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MY READING OF 00:07:58
Unidentified Speaker YOUNGER VS HARRISON
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ALL THE COURT WAS CONCERNED ABOUT IN THOSE CASES WAS THIZATION WHERE THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT
TO INTERFERE WITH A PENDING STATE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION. IN...
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POINTED OUT, 00:08:10
Unidentified Speaker THE ORIGINAL
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PARTIES TO THIS MATTER ARE WOMEN, AND IN ONE CASE THE HUSBAND. THE WOMEN, CERTAINLY, ARE
NOT SUBJECT TO PROSECUTION IN THE STATE OF TEXAS. THEY ARE...
00:08:57 Unidentified Speaker
EVEN IN THAT SITUATION AND THAT IN FACT SHE IS THE VICTIM OF OUR LAW. SHE CAN -- THERE
IS NO DECLARATORY RELIEF AVAILABLE 00:09:04
Unidentified Speaker FOR THESE PLAINTIFFS. THEIR ONLY FORUM WAS
THE FEDERAL COURT, AND IT WAS TO THOSE COURTS THAT THEY TURNED. >> YOUR THREE PLAINTIFFS
REAR, REPRESENTING... 00:09:32
Unidentified Speaker AND THEN THIRD IS A PHYSICIAN -- >>
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YES. >> WHO IS UNDER INDICTMENT, OR WAS 00:09:36
Unidentified Speaker AT THE TIME OF THIS COMPLAINT. >> THE PHYSICIAN
INTERVENED AFTER THE ORDER 00:09:40
Unidentified Speaker WAS ENTERED GRANTING JANE ROE A THREE-JUDGE
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COURT AND HE INTERVENED AGAIN, ASKING ONLY THAT FUTURE PROSECUTION UNDER THE LAW BE ENJOINED.
HE DID NOT ASK ANY RELIEF OF THE COURT RELATING TO HIS
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PENDING STATE CRIMINAL 00:09:55
Unidentified Speaker PROSECUTION. HE DID SPECIFICALLY, IN HIS
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COMPLAINT, RESERVE THE RIGHT TO ASK FOR FUTURE RELIEF, BUT THAT WAS NEVER DONE, AND CERTAINLY
IN THE FUTURE IF HE WAS ASKED FOR RELIEF THE COURT WOULD...
00:12:50 Unidentified Speaker
CRIMINAL. AND EVEN THERE ARE SOME CASES WHICH INDICATE THAT OUR STATE SUPREME COURT WOULD
NOT 00:12:56
Unidentified Speaker HAVE THE ABILITY TO INDAMUS ANY OF THE CRIMINAL
PROSECUTION OFFICERS BECAUSE THE TEXAS COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS HAS JURISDICTION AS TO
ALL CRIMINAL ... 00:14:48
Unidentified Speaker IF THE PREGNANCY WOULD RESULT IN THE BIRTH
OF A 00:14:52
Unidentified Speaker DEFORMED OR DEFECTIVE CHILD HE -- HE HAS NO
RELIEF 00:14:57
Unidentified Speaker REGARDLESS OF THE PURPOSE OF -- SHE HAS NO
RELIEF. I THINK IT IS WITHOUT QUESTION THAT PREGNANCY TO A WOMAN CAN COMPLETELY DISRUPT
HER LIFE, WHETHER... 00:18:41
Unidentified Speaker BECAUSE OF COURSE, WE CANNOT HERE BE INVOLVED
SIMPLY WITH MATTERS OF POLICY, AS YOU KNOW. >> YOUR HONOR, IN THE LOWER COURTS AS I'M
SURE YOU ARE AWARE... 00:19:09
Unidentified Speaker SUBMITTED TO THE COURT AND DISTRIBUTED AMONG
COUNCIL ENTITLED THE PHOENIX OF ABORTIONAL FREEDOM THAT AT THE TIME THE CONSTITUTION
WAS ADOPTED THERE... 00:20:48
Unidentified Speaker COURT FOUND THE RIGHT TO RESIDE IN THE NINTH
AMENDMENT, WE POINTED OUR ATTENTION IN THE BRIEF TO
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THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT OF THE CONSTITUTION. BUT I THINK WE WOULD NOT PRESUME -- I DO
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FEEL THAT -- 00:21:06
Unidentified Speaker THAT INSOMUCH AS THE COURT SAID THAT THE NINTH
AMENDMENT APPLIED TO THE RIGHTS RESERVED TO THE PEOPLE THAT THE NINTH AMENDMENT IS THE
APPROPRIATE PLACE... 00:22:27
Unidentified Speaker HAVE RESERVED TO THE WOMAN AS BEING THE VICTIM
AND THEY HAVE NEVER REFERRED TO ANYONE ELSE AS BEING
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THE VICTIM. TIMES HAVE CERTAINLY CHANGED. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT IN
TEXAS SELF-ABORTION IS NO CRIME. THE WOMAN IS GUILTY OF NO CRIME...
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THE SITUATION IN WHICH THE CASE IS HANDLED. CERTAINLY, I THINK AS A
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PRACTICAL MATTER, THOUGH, MOST OF THE STATES THAT DO HAVE SOME TIME LIMIT INDICATED STILL
PERMIT ABORTIONS BEYOND 00:24:27
Unidentified Speaker THE TIME LIMIT FOR
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SPECIFIED REASONS, USUALLY WHERE THE HEALTH OF THE MOTHER IS INVOLVED. >> WHAT'S YOUR
CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION THERE? >> AS TO A TIME LIMIT? >> WHATEVER...
00:24:53 Unidentified Speaker
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THAT IT IS THE 00:24:57
Unidentified Speaker FREEDOM OF WITH THE WOMAN TO DETERMINE WHETHER
OR NOT TO CONTINUE A PREGNANCY. OBVIOUSLY I HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME SAYING THE
STATE HAS NO INTEREST... 00:25:16
Unidentified Speaker I GUESS BY PERSONS CONSIDERING THE ISSUE OUTSIDE
THE LEGAL CONTEXT. I THINK AS FAR AS THE STATE -- >> DO YOU OR DON'T YOU SAY THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL...
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RIGHTS YOU INSIST 00:25:30
Unidentified Speaker ON REACHES FROM THE TIME OF BIRTH OR -- >> THE
CONSTITUTION AS I READ IT AND AS 00:25:35
Unidentified Speaker IS INTERPRETED AND
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DOCUMENTS BY PROFESSOR MEANS ATTACHES PROTECTION TO THE PERSON AT THE TIME OF BIRTH THOSE PERSONS
BORN ARE CITIZENS. 00:25:44
Unidentified Speaker THE ENUMERATION CLAUSE. WE COUNT THOSE PEOPLE
WHO ARE 00:25:47
Unidentified Speaker BORN. THE CONSTITUTION, AS I SEE IT, GIVES
PROTECTION 00:25:50
Unidentified Speaker TO PEOPLE AFTER
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BIRTH. >> (INAUDIBLE) THE ISSUE HERE, I GUESS, ON YOUR APPEAL IS WHETHER YOU ARE ENTITLED
TO INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. >> YES, YOUR HONOR. >> ASSUMING THAT...
00:26:16 Unidentified Speaker
INJUNCTIVE RELIEF? THERE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS (INAUDIBLE) >> YES, SIR. CERTAINLY IN YOUR
DISSENT YOU POINT OUT IN (INAUDIBLE) 00:26:24
Unidentified Speaker DISSENTING OPINION -- >> THAT WAS A DEFENSE.
>> IT WAS 00:26:27
Unidentified Speaker A DEFENSE, THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT STANDARDS
WHICH APPLY TO THE DECLARATORY JUDGMENT AND TO INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. >> I GUESS YOU SAID
THAT IN (INAUDIBLE)... 00:26:41
Unidentified Speaker SAID FOLLOWING LICKLER VERSUS TUTOR,
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THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE 00:26:48
Unidentified Speaker GRANTING DECLARATORY RELIEF DIFFERENT RULES
APPLIED TO INJUNCTIVE RELIEF BUT THE OPINIONS OF THIS COURT HAS ESTABLISHED
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WHETHER THERE IS GREAT AND IMMEDIATE THREAT 00:26:58
Unidentified Speaker OF IRREPARRABLE INJURY WITH NO ADEQUATE REMEDY
IN STATE COURT THAT AN INJUNCTION IS STILL PROPER AND IT IS OUR POSITION THAT THERE IS
GREAT AND IMMEDIATE... 00:27:30
Unidentified Speaker HONOR. >> WHAT ABOUT
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THE DOCTOR, WHERE A CRIMINAL PROSECUTION IS ALREADY PENDING AGAINST HIM? >> THE DOCTOR,
AS I SAID, I WAS ASKING NO 00:27:40
Unidentified Speaker RELIEF AS TO THE PENDING PROSECUTION, HE WAS
ONLY ASKING RELIEF AS TO THE FUTURE -- >> 00:27:44
Unidentified Speaker NOT ASKING FOR DECLARATORY
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JUDGMENT? >> YES, YOUR HONOR, HE JOINED IN BOTH THE REQUEST FOR THE DECLARATORY JUDGMENT
-- >> 00:27:50
Unidentified Speaker ISN'T YOUNGER
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AND (INAUDIBLE) CASES COVER DECLARATORY JUDGMENT? >> WHERE THERE
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WERE PENDING -- SAMUELS VERSUS MICHAEL, AS I READ IT, DID SAY THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A REQUEST
00:28:05 Unidentified Speaker
FOR DECLARATORY JUDGMENT, THERE 00:28:07
Unidentified Speaker WOULD BE AN EFFECT ON A PENDING CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.
>> WAS ONE PENDING -- >> THERE WAS ONE PENDING WHEN THIS
00:28:13 Unidentified Speaker
ACTION WAS BROUGHT. AGAINST DR. 00:28:18
Unidentified Speaker HALFORD. HOWEVER, IN THIS CASE, WE SUBMIT
THAT IF THERE IS TO BE ANY MEANING TO THE FEDERAL COURTS AS THE SUPREME ARBITERS OF
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS... 00:28:30
Unidentified Speaker TO ACT, AT LEAST IN
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SOME FORM, WHEN THERE ARE PENDING CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS, NOT PARTICULARLY AGAINST THE
PERSON INVOLVED IN THE PROSECUTIONS BUT OTHER -- >> (INAUDIBLE)...
00:29:02 Unidentified Speaker
THAT? >> I'M SUGGESTING THAT IN IN CASE, THE WOMEN IN PARTICULAR BROUGHT A DECLARATORY
ACTION HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENDING STATE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION....
00:29:17 Unidentified Speaker
DOCTOR CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BE SUFFICIENT -- >> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DOCTOR'S
00:29:20 Unidentified Speaker
CASE. >> RIGHT. AND BECAUSE THE DOCTOR INTERVENED, WHEN HE WAS ASKING
00:29:24 Unidentified Speaker
NO RELIEF AS TO THE PENDING STATE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, THAT HAS INTERVENTION -- >> YOU
MEAN HE WAS ASKING NOTHING -- HE WAS ASKING 00:29:34
Unidentified Speaker WHAT? AGAINST THE CONTINUEANCE OF THAT
00:29:36 Unidentified Speaker
PROGRESS? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> DECLARATORY JUDGMENT -- >> AS
00:29:39 Unidentified Speaker
TO FUTURE PROSECUTION. >> 00:29:40
Unidentified Speaker EXCEPT THAT HE WANTED DECLARATORY JUDGMENT,
AS I UNDERSTAND IT. >> YES. >> THE UNDERLYING STATUTE ON WHICH THE PROSECUTION WAS BROUGHT
IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.... 00:29:50
Unidentified Speaker THAT'S WHAT SAMUELS AND MICHAEL SAID HE DIDN'T
HAVE. >> ASK WHICH YOUR DISSENT SAID HE DIDN'T HAVE. >>
00:29:57 Unidentified Speaker
00:29:58 Unidentified Speaker
I 00:29:59
Unidentified Speaker REPEAT -- (INAUDIBLE) >>
00:30:00 Unidentified Speaker
OK. I THINK PERHAPS WE WOULD STRESS THAT 00:30:03
Unidentified Speaker THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE
00:30:04 Unidentified Speaker
ACTIONS BEFORE THE COURT. FIRST, THAT OF THE WOMEN. AND SECOND, THAT OF
00:30:09 Unidentified Speaker
THE DOCTOR. >> SO THAT EVEN THOUGH -- >> EVEN THOUGH THE DOCTOR -- EVEN THOUGH
00:30:12 Unidentified Speaker
THE COURT MIGHT FIND THAT THE DOCTOR WAS AN INAPPROPRIATE
00:30:15 Unidentified Speaker
PARTY FOR RELIEF IT CERTAINLY WOULD NOT AFFECT 00:30:19
Unidentified Speaker THE ORIGINAL ACTION AS BROUGHT BY THE WOMEN.
>> 00:30:21
Unidentified Speaker ALL RIGHT. I COME BACK AGAIN, IF WE'RE LEFT
ONLY WITH THE LADIES' ACTION, ARE YOU SUGGESTING 00:30:29
Unidentified Speaker THAT
00:30:31 Unidentified Speaker
THE DECLARATORY RELIEF THEY ALREADY OBTAINED IS NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T HELP TERMINATE
THE PREGNANCY? >> BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL 00:30:41
Unidentified Speaker SUBJECT TO THE IRREPARABLE INJURY AND HAD
NO STATE REMEDY. IF THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO CONTINUE TO LITIGATE THEIR INTEREST IN THIS SITUATION,
ANYTIME THERE... 00:30:59
Unidentified Speaker STATE COURT ON APPEAL -- OR IT WILL BE APPEALED
HERE, I THINK, AND CERTAINLY IF THEY CANNOT LITIGATE THEIR INTERESTS WHILE THERE IS PROSECUTION
PENDING... 00:31:36
Unidentified Speaker RIGHTS BUT THE RIGHTS OF HIS PATIENTS AND
THOSE SAME PATIENTS ARE SUFFERING THE SAME SORT OF IRREPARABLE INJURY THAT THE ORIGINAL
00:31:44 Unidentified Speaker
PLAINTIFFS WERE SUFFERING. >> COULDN'T THE DOCTOR RAISE THE SAME POINT IN THE CRIMINAL
PROSECUTION? >> YES, YOUR HONOR, HE CAN. BUT I -- I DON'T FEEL...
00:32:07 Unidentified Speaker
ISSUES HERE. THE ISSUE INVOLVING THE DOCTOR, DA >> YES. >>
00:32:10 Unidentified Speaker
IS TO LITIGATE EVERYTHING HE'S NOW LITIGATING IN THE STATE COURT. >> YES, YOUR HONOR, MY
POINT BEING THAT THESE WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE COMPELLED TO LEAVE...
00:32:25 Unidentified Speaker
CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, ISN'T HE? YOU CAN COUNT ON HIM TO DO THAT. >> WELL, I THINK THERE
ARE 00:32:29
Unidentified Speaker DIFFERENT
00:32:30 Unidentified Speaker
INTERESTS INVOLVED. IN MOST 00:32:34
Unidentified Speaker CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS BRING UP OTHER PROBLEMS
-- >> "I DIDN'T DO IT" OR SOMETHING. >> OR THE WITNESSES HAVE DISAPPEARED
00:32:42 Unidentified Speaker
OR -- >> HAS THIS DEFENSE EVER BEEN OPPOSED IN A TEXAS CRIMINAL
00:32:48 Unidentified Speaker
CASE FOR CONSTITUTIONAL DEFENSE? >> YES, YOUR HONOR, THERE IS ONE RECENT OPINION, THOMPSON
VERSUS THE STATE OF TEXAS WHICH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ATTEMPTED...
00:32:59 Unidentified Speaker
AND THE COURT REJECTED IT, IT WAS A DECISION 00:33:01
Unidentified Speaker ABOUT A MONTH AND A HALF AGO WHICH ORIGINATED
IN HOUSTON. A 00:33:05
Unidentified Speaker DOCTOR THERE WAS INDITED ON A CHARGE OF -- INDICTED
ON A CHARGE OF 00:33:10
Unidentified Speaker ABORTION. AT TRIAL HE USED ONLY AN ALIBI DEFENSE
BUT ON APPEAL HE DID RAISE THE SAME CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS THAT WE RAISED IN THE FEDERAL COURTS
--... 00:33:39
Unidentified Speaker THE CHIEF
00:33:40 Unidentified Speaker
JUSTICE. >> SECOND THEY DID NOT DETERMINE WHETHER THERE WAS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY BUT DID
HOLD THERE WAS A COMPEMMING INTEREST, SO IN -- COMPELLING INTEREST...
00:33:59 Unidentified Speaker
TO THE FEDERAL COURT OPINION FROM WHICH WE ARE
00:34:01 Unidentified Speaker
APPEALING. >> THAT CASE CAN BE (INAUDIBLE) >> THEY HAVE FILED A MOTION FOR REHEARING
IN THE STATE COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS WHICH WILL BE ARGUED TOMORROW....
00:34:12 Unidentified Speaker
UNLIKELY THAT THE COURT WOULD CHANGE ITS OPINION, AND IT IS THE INTENTION
00:34:17 Unidentified Speaker
OF THOSE PARTIES TO APPEAL. >> DOES TEXAS LAW, IN
00:34:22 Unidentified Speaker
OTHER AREAS OF THE LAW, GIVE RIGHTS 00:34:24
Unidentified Speaker TO UNBORN CHILDREN IN THE AREAS OF TRUST,
ESTATES AND WILLS OR -- >> NO, YOUR HONOR, ONLY IF THEY'RE BORN ALIVE. THE SUPREME COURT
OF TEXAS RECENTLY... 00:34:42
Unidentified Speaker THE CONDITION THAT IT BE BORN ALIVE. THE SAME
IS TRUE OF OUR PROPERTY LAW. THE CHILD MUST BE BORN ALIVE. AND I THINK THERE IS A
00:34:50 Unidentified Speaker
DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE CHILDREN WHICH ARE ULTIMATELY BORN, AND I THINK IT IS APPROPRIATE
TO GIVE THEM RETROACTIVE RIGHTS, I THINK IT'S A COMPLETELY...
00:35:25 Unidentified Speaker
THERE WAS NO CAUSE OF ACTION WHATSOEVER. >> FOR THE MOTHER -- >> I'M SPEAKING, EXCUSE ME,
SOLELY FOR THE 00:35:33
Unidentified Speaker FETUS, THAT THE FETUS HAD NO INDEPENDENT RIGHT,
THAT THE MOTHER -- >> 00:35:38
Unidentified Speaker THE MOTHER RECOVERING FROM THE DEATH OF THE
CHILD -- >> 00:35:41
Unidentified Speaker ONLY FOR HER INJURY. >> ONLY FOR HERS. DID
THAT INCLUDE ANYTHING WITH REGARD TO THE CHILD? >> NO, YOUR HONOR.
00:35:49 Unidentified Speaker
THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, MRS. 00:35:51
Unidentified Speaker WEDDINGTON. MR. FLOYD. >> MR. CHIEF JUSTICE,
MAY IT PLEASE THE 00:35:59
Unidentified Speaker COURT. IT'S AN OLD JOKE, BUT
00:36:02 Unidentified Speaker
WHEN A MAN ARGUES AGAINST TWO 00:36:04
Unidentified Speaker BEAUTIFUL LADIES LIKE THIS THEY'RE GOING TO
HAVE THE LAST 00:36:08
Unidentified Speaker WORD. I --
00:36:11 Unidentified Speaker
BEFORE I PROCEED TO THE ORIGINAL ISSUE IN THIS CASE,
00:36:16 Unidentified Speaker
WHICH WAS THE PROPRIETY OF THE TRIAL COURT GRANT -- OR DENYING INJUNCTIVE RELIEF, I WOULD
LIKE TO BRING TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION SOME MATTERS CONCERNING...
00:38:53 Unidentified Speaker
SAY THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD UPHOLD HER STANDING OR ELIMINATE THE MOOTNESS
00:38:57 Unidentified Speaker
ISSUE WOULD BE WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS A CLASS ACTION
00:39:00 Unidentified Speaker
ON HER PART. >> YES, YOUR HONOR. >> THE RECORD THAT CAME UP TO THIS COURT CONTAINS THE AMENDED
00:39:13 Unidentified Speaker
PETITION OF JANE ROE. AN UNSIGNED ALIAS AFFIDAVIT. AND THAT IS ALL. SHE
00:39:26 Unidentified Speaker
ALLEGES THAT SHE WAS PREGNANT ON 00:39:28
Unidentified Speaker APRIL THE 20TH, 1970, WHICH IS SOME 21 MONTHS
AGO. NOW, I THINK THAT IT IS -- IT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED BY THE APPELLANT'S COUNSEL THAT
SHE IS NO LONGER... 00:42:19
Unidentified Speaker THEIR STATUTE HAD BEEN -- IT'S NOT TRUE HERE.
>> IT'S NOT WHAT WE CALL A 00:42:24
Unidentified Speaker WHITE HORSE. >> I
00:42:35 Unidentified Speaker
UNDERSTAND. >> IN RESPECT TO THE CLASS ACTION PORTION OF THIS, AND I SAY I HAVE NO AUTHORITY
TO SUPPORT THIS PROPOSITION, BUT IT WOULD APPEAR
00:42:43 Unidentified Speaker
THAT IN ORDER FOR A CLASS ACTION TO CONTINUE IF THERE BE ONE TO BEGIN WITH IS THAT ONE
PLAINTIFF MUST REMAIN OR ELSE 00:42:55
Unidentified Speaker AN INTERVENOR,
00:42:56 Unidentified Speaker
OR SOMEONE TO BE A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CLASS. BECAUSE THIS IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE CLASS
ACTION. TO HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE IN COURT. THE POSITION...
00:43:38 Unidentified Speaker
IF I MAY. >> OK. >> I DO NOT BELIEVE IT CAN BE DONE. THERE ARE SITUATIONS IN WHICH, OF
COURSE, AS THE COURT KNOWS, NO REMEDY IS PROVIDED. I THINK SHE...
00:43:55 Unidentified Speaker
SHE BECOMES PREGNANT. THAT IS THE TIME OF THE CHOICE. IT'S LIKE,
00:44:00 Unidentified Speaker
MORE OR LESS, THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR 00:44:02
Unidentified Speaker YEARS OF HER LIFE WE DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
BUT ONCE A CHILD IS BORN THE WOMAN NO LONGER HAS A CHOICE AND I THINK PREGNANCY MAY TERMINATE
THAT CHOICE... 00:44:33
Unidentified Speaker ON MOVING. >> YOUR HONOR, APPELLANT IS UNDER
TWO ARGUMENTS CHARGED WITH THE OFFENSE OF PERFORMING AN ABORTION. THERE ARE NO ALLEGATIONS
IN THE COMPLAINT... 00:44:53
Unidentified Speaker APPELLANT HALFORD OR NONE IN HIS AFFIDAVIT
THAT THERE IS ANY BAD 00:44:58
Unidentified Speaker FAITH PROSECUTION, BAD FAITH ARREST, HARASSMENT
OF HIM AT ALL TO BRING HIM WITHIN PROSKEY'S SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES. WE THINK THE CASES
OF YOUNGER VS... 00:46:54
Unidentified Speaker CAN DENY INJINCHINGTIVE RELIEF. >> CERTAINLY
IF THE JUDGMENT ABOUT THE -- IF THE DECLARATORY JUDGMENT WAS ERRONEOUS, IT WAS ALSO RIGHT
TO DENY AN INJUNCTION.... 00:47:13
Unidentified Speaker COURT, OF COURSE -- >> DIDN'T APPEAL. >> WE
COULD NOT TO THIS COURT, YOUR 00:47:19
Unidentified Speaker HONOR, WE HAVE TO GO TO THE FIFTH CIRCUIT,
SO WE HAVE -- >> ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO SUSTAIN THE DENIAL OF AN INJUNCTION HERE ON THE GROUNDS
THAT THE 00:47:29
Unidentified Speaker DECLARATORY JUDGMENT WAS IMPROPER? >> WE
00:47:31 Unidentified Speaker
ARE ASKING THE COURT -- 00:47:34
Unidentified Speaker REQUESTING THE COURT TO DO THIS.
00:47:36 Unidentified Speaker
IF THE COURT GETS INTO 00:47:37
Unidentified Speaker THE MERITS OF INJUNCTIVE RELIEF, WHETHER OR
NOT IT WAS PROPER UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, 00:47:43
Unidentified Speaker THAT THIS COURT GO FORWARD AND CONTINUE THE
OTHER -- OR CONTINUE THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES AND MAKE A DECISION OR NOT. >> CAN WE DO
00:47:53 Unidentified Speaker
THAT? YOU AND THE FIFTH CIRCUIT, BECAUSE WE SAID YOU COULDN'T CROSS-APPEAL FROM THE DECLARATORY
JUDGMENT, YOU COULD ONLY CROSS-APPEAL FROM THE GRANTING...
00:48:13 Unidentified Speaker
YOU'RE HERE. YOUR OPPONENT HAS BROUGHT A DIRECT APPEAL HERE BECAUSE YOUR OPPONENT WAS DENIED
AN UNJUNCTION BY THE THREE-JUDGE DISTRICT COURT. >> YES,...
00:48:23 Unidentified Speaker
A CROSS APPEAL HERE BECAUSE YOU WON 00:48:25
Unidentified Speaker FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF SUCCESSFULLY RESISTING
THE INJUNCTION. >> YES, SIR. >> NOW THAT YOU ARE HERE AS THE APPELLEE, YOU ARE ARGUING
THAT AN 00:48:34
Unidentified Speaker INJUNCTION SHOULD NOT HAVE ISSUED AND PART
OF THAT JUDGMENT VERY LEGITIMATELY CAN BE THAT ON THE MERITS THE COURT
00:48:41 Unidentified Speaker
WAS WRONG AND THAT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE 00:48:43
Unidentified Speaker ISSUED A DECLARATORY JUDGMENT OR AN INJUNCTION.
>> YES, YOUR HONOR. >> IS THAT YOUR POSITION? >>
00:48:50 Unidentified Speaker
YES. 00:48:51
Unidentified Speaker NOW THE PROCEDURES IN THE FIFTH CIRCUIT HAVE
BEEN STAYED OR ABATED -- >> (INAUDIBLE) SAY YOUR POSITION MAKES SENSE TO ME. (INAUDIBLE)
ON THE COURT OPPOSE... 00:49:08
Unidentified Speaker WANT TO BE REPETITION,
00:49:09 Unidentified Speaker
BUT A MOTION 00:49:10
Unidentified Speaker HAS BEEN FILED IN THE FIFTH CIRCUIT TO HOLD
THE APPEAL IN ABEYANCE UNTIL A DETERMINATION BY THIS COURT. >> YOU
00:49:17 Unidentified Speaker
DIDN'T ASK -- HE DIDN'T FILE ANY MOTION HERE ASKING US TO BRING YOUR APPEAL PENDING IN
THE FIFTH CIRCUIT HERE FOR A DECISION WITH THIS APPEAL, DID...
00:49:28 Unidentified Speaker
IN OUR REPLY TO THE JURISDICTION AND IN OUR BRIEF. WE HAVE PRESENTED IT IN THAT
00:49:38 Unidentified Speaker
MANNER. YOUR HONOR, WE FEEL THAT THIS COURT CAN AND SHOULD CONSIDER ALL ISSUES,
00:49:45 Unidentified Speaker
AND UNDER THE STERLING AND FLORIDA LYMAN CAR GROWERS AND CARTER CASES WHICH ARE CITED IN
THE BRIEFS OF THE PARTIES. >> (INAUDIBLE) TEXAS INTEREST --...
00:50:20 Unidentified Speaker
THE COURT OF APPEALS DID NOT DECIDE THE ISSUE OF PRIVACY. IT WAS NOT BEFORE THE COURT. OR
THE RIGHT OF CHOICE ISSUE. THE STATE -- THE STATE COURT,
00:50:31 Unidentified Speaker
THE COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS HELD THAT THE STATE HAD A COMPELLING INTEREST BECAUSE OF
THE PROTECTION OF FETAL LIFE. OF FETAL LIFE. PROTECTION. THEY...
00:51:26 Unidentified Speaker
HUMAN BEING? I DON'T KNOW, EXCEPT THAT I WILL SAY THIS. AS MEDICAL
00:51:33 Unidentified Speaker
SCIENCE PROGRESSES, MAYBE THE LAW WILL PROGRESS ALONG WITH IT. MAYBE AT ONE TIME IT COULD
BE POSSIBLY, I SUPPOSE, THAT IT COULD BE PASSED. WHETHER OR...
00:52:04 Unidentified Speaker
COVERS THE ENTIRE PERIOD OF PREGNANCY. >> YES, IT DOES, MR. JUSTICE,
00:52:10 Unidentified Speaker
YES, SIR. >> MR. FLOYD, DOES THAT -- I DON'T FIND THAT (INAUDIBLE) I GATHER YOU SAID IT
HAS BEEN DECIDED RECENTLY. >> 00:52:18
Unidentified Speaker MR.
00:52:19 Unidentified Speaker
JUSTICE, THIS CASE IS 00:52:20
Unidentified Speaker JUST A RECENT CASE. >>
00:52:22 Unidentified Speaker
DO YOU HAVE A CITATION? >> IT 00:52:24
Unidentified Speaker IS NOT IN THE REPORTER SYSTEM YET. >> ARE
YOU GOING TO PROVIDE US WITH 00:52:29
Unidentified Speaker A TRANSCRIPT? >> I WILL BE HAPPY TO PROVIDE
THE COURT WITH COPIES OF 00:52:33
Unidentified Speaker THAT. THIS IS NUMBER
00:52:39 Unidentified Speaker
00:52:42 Unidentified Speaker
44, 070, C.W. THOMPSON VERSUS 00:52:45
Unidentified Speaker THE STATE OF
00:52:48 Unidentified Speaker
00:52:50 Unidentified Speaker
TEXAS. THE OPINION WAS DELIVERED ON NOVEMBER THE 2ND, 1971. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO PROVIDE
THE COURT WITH THIS COPY IF THE COURT SO DESIRES. >> THAT'S...
00:53:32 Unidentified Speaker
THAT IN ADDITION TO THE THOMPSON CASE DECIDED 00:53:36
Unidentified Speaker A HUGE CASE IN REGARD TO VAGUENESS
00:53:38 Unidentified Speaker
AND SAID THAT IT WAS CONTROLLING THE ISSUES, AND
00:53:43 Unidentified Speaker
AS I RECALL, 00:53:45
Unidentified Speaker DR. THOMPSON RAISED THE ISSUE OF HOW CAN YOU
FIND ME GUILTY OF MURDER -- I MEAN, OF 00:53:53
Unidentified Speaker ABORTION IF YOU MAKE NO DETERMINATION THAT
THE FETUS IS ALIVE AT THE TIME I PERFORMED THIS, IN EFFECT, IS WHAT HE'S SAYING. HE NEVER
ADMITTED DOING... 00:54:36
Unidentified Speaker I THINK YOU ALSO SAID THAT WAS PERHAPS NOT
ITS ORIGINAL PURPOSE. >> WELL, I'M NOT SURE OF THAT. >> IT MAY BE RATHER IMPORTANT. IN
A CONSTITUTIONAL CASE... 00:55:03
Unidentified Speaker BE THE SAME IN
00:55:05 Unidentified Speaker
THIS RESPECT. THERE HAVE BEEN STATISTICS FURNISHED TO THIS COURT IN VARIOUS BRIEFS FROM VARIOUS
GROUPS AND FROM MEDICAL 00:55:19
Unidentified Speaker SOCIETIES OF DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PHYSICIANS
AND GYNECOLOGISTS OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE, THESE STATISTICS HAVE NOT SHOWN ME, FOR INSTANCE
-- FOR EXAMPLE,... 00:56:28
Unidentified Speaker LEGISLATION. >> I AM -- AND THIS IS JUST FROM
MY -- I SPEAK PERSONALLY, IF I MAY, I WOULD THINK THAT EVEN WHEN THIS STATUTE WAS FIRST
PASSED THERE WAS... 00:56:50
Unidentified Speaker 1900, 1907, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. >> IT GOES
BACK -- >> IT GOES BACK MANY -- >> 19TH CENTURY. >> BEFORE THAT THERE WERE NO CRIMINAL ABORTION
LAWS IN... 00:57:01
Unidentified Speaker I KNOW, NO. I THINK THIS WAS MAYBE SET OUT
IN SOME 00:57:05
Unidentified Speaker OF THE BRIEFS. I -- >> IN ANY EVENT, MR. FLOYD,
APART FROM YOUR PERSONAL ATTITUDE THE COURT 00:57:12
Unidentified Speaker IS OPEN ON THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE, IS
00:57:14 Unidentified Speaker
IT NOT? >> YES. YES. >> 00:57:16
Unidentified Speaker I CAN'T SQUARE THAT MOST
00:57:18 Unidentified Speaker
RECENT PRONOUNSMENT WITH THE EARLIER DECISIONS OF THE TEXAS COURT THAT REFER TO THE MOTHER
00:57:23 Unidentified Speaker
AS THE VICTIM. CAN YOU? >> WELL, AS I 00:57:29
Unidentified Speaker SAY, YOUR HONOR, I DON'T THINK THE
00:57:34 Unidentified Speaker
COURTS HAVE COME TO 00:57:37
Unidentified Speaker THE CONCLUSION THAT THE UNBORN HAS FULL JURISTIC
RIGHTS. NOT YET. MAYBE THEY WILL. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE 10-POINT.
>> IN THE... 00:57:52
Unidentified Speaker PREGNANCY? >> SIR? >> IN THE FIRST FEW WEEKS
OF PREGNANCY? >> AT ANY TIME, MR. JUSTICE. WE MAKE NO DISTINCTIONS. >> (INAUDIBLE) THERE
ARE NOT. >> WE... 00:58:11
Unidentified Speaker THE MOMENT OF
00:58:13 Unidentified Speaker
IMPREGNATION. >> AND DO YOU HAVE ANY SCIENTIFIC DATA TO
00:58:16 Unidentified Speaker
SUPPORT THAT? >> WELL, WE BEGIN, MR. JUSTICE, 00:58:21
Unidentified Speaker IN OUR BRIEF WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN
EMBRYO CARRYING 00:58:27
Unidentified Speaker IT THROUGH TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE FETUS
00:58:30 Unidentified Speaker
FROM ABOUT 7-9 DAYS AFTER CONCEPTION. >> 00:58:34
Unidentified Speaker WHAT ABOUT SIX DAYS? >> WE DON'T KNOW. >> BUT
THE 00:58:39
Unidentified Speaker STATUTE (INAUDIBLE) ONE HOUR. >> I DON'T -- MR.
JUSTICE, THERE ARE UNANSWERABLE QUESTIONS IN THIS FIELD. THIS IS AN ARTLESS STATEMENT ON MY PART. >>...
00:58:54 Unidentified Speaker
QUESTION. THANK 00:58:56
Unidentified Speaker YOU. >> WHEN DOES THE SOUL COME INTO THE UNBORN?
00:59:00 Unidentified Speaker
IF THE PERSON BELIEVES IN A SOUL? I DON'T 00:59:05
Unidentified Speaker 00:59:14
Unidentified Speaker KNOW. I ASSUME THE
00:59:18 Unidentified Speaker
APPELLANTS NOW ARE OPERATING UNDER -- >> I ASSUME THE APPELLANTS NOW ARE OPERATING UNDER
THE NINTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS. THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS OF FIRST...
00:59:42 Unidentified Speaker
OF ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP. I SEE NO MERIT IN THEIR CONTENTION THAT IT COULD POSSIBLY BE UNDER FREEDOM OF SPEECH
OR PRESS -- IN FACT, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME... 01:02:03
Unidentified Speaker THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION CONCERNING
01:02:08 Unidentified Speaker
BIRTH, CONTRACEPTION OR 01:02:15
Unidentified Speaker ABORTION. THE APPELLEE DOES NOT DISAGREE WITH
THE APPELLANTS' STATEMENT THAT A WOMAN HAS A CHOICE, BUT AS WE HAVE PREVIOUSLY
01:02:23 Unidentified Speaker
MENTIONED WE FEEL THAT THIS CHOICE IS LEFT UP -- IS THE WOMAN'S PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT
SHE BECOMES PREGNANT. THIS IS THE TIME OF THE CHOICE. NOW,... 01:03:18
Unidentified Speaker THE PROCEDURE -- AND
01:03:19 Unidentified Speaker
I'M -- NOW I'M TELLING THE COURT SOMETHING THAT IS OUTSIDE
01:03:23 Unidentified Speaker
THE RECORD BUT I UNDERSTAND THE PROCEDURE WHEN A WOMAN IS BROUGHT IN AFTER RAPE IS YOU
TRY TO STOP WHATEVER HAS OCCURRED IMMEDIATELY BY THE PROPER
01:03:32 Unidentified Speaker
PROCEDURE IN THE HOSPITAL, 01:03:35
Unidentified Speaker IMMEDIATELY SHE'S TAKEN THERE, IF SHE REPORTS
IT 01:03:39
Unidentified Speaker IMMEDIATELY, BUT NO, THERE IS NOTHING, NO
STATUTE. AS I PREVIOUSLY INFORMED THE COURT, THE STATISTICS -- OR
THE PEOPLE WHO PREPARE THE STATISTICS AND... 01:05:24
Unidentified Speaker
IS 01:05:27
Unidentified Speaker SUBMITTED.